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faceless
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Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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 Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| the essay doesn't attack Iran at all - the culmination of Kate's research was that there is no clear evidence either way. |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| faceless wrote: | | the essay doesn't attack Iran at all - the culmination of Kate's research was that there is no clear evidence either way. |
I felt the article still came out against Iran, especially the view that the huge number of sex changes "is actually symptomatic of the inherent homophobia". To me, it is a symptom of the opposite, i.e. liberty in the whole sexual side. |
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faceless
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Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| A sex-change can be done on the NHS here, and it's clear that the desire for it is not as large as it is in Iran - which on a natural comparison of populations it should be. Therefore there must be some other social reason for it, or the doctors have less stringent guidelines. I doubt very much that it's because Iran has (with its Sharia law) decided to be more liberal. |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| faceless wrote: | | A sex-change can be done on the NHS here, and it's clear that the desire for it is not as large as it is in Iran |
It could be that the NHS is letting people down badly :
http://www.antijen.org/amber/
| Quote: | National Health Service
Most NHS assessment in England depends more on delay to supposedly help in weeding out applicants than insight into the transsexual syndrome. Illegally long waits for appointments are common. Deliberate lies to patients, and poor hormonal prescribing so that results are disappointing, are common. Respect for patients and for medical confidentiality are almost unknown. At most centres there is little or no "counselling", only the forcing of already suffering people through an irrelevant and prolonged obstacle course by psychiatrists or psychologists with no experience of the condition themselves, little training about it, and some weird theories.
Whilst some NHS surgeons are the best in the country, others are unreliable, with poor resulting appearance and frequent problems with vital functions resulting. Unfortunately patients are usually denied a choice of surgeon. The private route offers better treatment in every respect, a fact recognised by several NHS districts who pay for patients to be privately treated, for the whole or part of the process. For example, private, individual hospital rooms are far more suitable for sex reassignment surgery patients, providing complete privacy for the questions, discussions, and treatments of an utterly intimate nature, providing greater protection from infections (which can be disastrous following genital micro-surgery), for quiet during the days of discomfort and confinement to bed, private telephones to enable communications with friends and families at what is a crucial point in patient's lives, and televisions to help with the passing of the 7 or so days confined to bed. A shared ward, with curtains alone for privacy, as is almost inevitable in NHS hospitals, is far less suitable. |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy, do you believe that gay people are persecuted in Iran? A yes or no answer will be fine. |
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til661
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | | faceless wrote: | | the essay doesn't attack Iran at all - the culmination of Kate's research was that there is no clear evidence either way. |
I felt the article still came out against Iran, especially the view that the huge number of sex changes "is actually symptomatic of the inherent homophobia". To me, it is a symptom of the opposite, i.e. liberty in the whole sexual side. |
Sexual Liberty 
Do you actually read the things you write? |
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til661
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | By showing the discrimination against gays is world-wide and isn't restricted to one country (Iran) which seems to be uniquely targeted at the moment. Isn't this hypocrisy and double-standards which we have seen and discussed so much on in regards to Palestine / Israel. Indeed, before criticising the Iranian courts for miscarriages of justice when saying prior convictions for sexual crimes are unsafe, it is the US courts which are most feared : http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article3570695.ece
Are we saying the US has never hanged or killed a homosexual person who has committed sex crimes ? |
It certainly isn't to Iran, any number of Middle Eastern countries are equally bad, but you seem incapable of separating legitimate criticism from illegitimate.
| Mandy wrote: | Regarding the UK, I have little trust in UK courts, after the numerous miscarriages of justice we have seen and the official coverups / whitewashes (aka independent
enquiries such as the Hutton Enquiry) |
Being gay isn't illegal in the UK.
| Mandy wrote: | | Indeed, I recall a very recent BBC report that the most common insult in the playground IN THE UK is to be called GAY .. Shows there's something rotten in the heart of the UK which should be fixed before we throw stones (or missiles or nukes) at other countries. The mental and psychological damage (and probable suicides) done to every generation of kids in the UK by these insults must be a magnitude greater than any actions done by the Iranian government. |
Nobody here supports attacking Iran so drop the straw-man. If you seriously believe playground bullying is comparable to state-sanctioned predjudice, I don't know what to tell you.
| Mandy wrote: | | I wonder if trying to take out your frustrations on an outside enemy is a natural response to being tormented at school or in the UK if in public and involved in homosexual activity. |
I don't even know what this means.
| Mandy wrote: | | I bet that you are likely to get more of a negative reaction in the UK to public homosexual activity than in Iran -- at least in Iran it is likely to be the government, rather than a crowd of drunken yobs hurling abuse and possibly much more. |
Simply put: nonsense. Again, do you actually read what you write?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/may/23/equality.gayrights
| Mandy wrote: | Whilst expecting to get the usual outburst from Kate, I have one question we should all ponder : Of all the countries in the world, why did Kate choose to create a documentary on Iran and especially at this time when Iran is being set up to be attacked ? The thoughts of dodgy dossiers from internet material comes to mind.
Has the state's control of the media become so powerful that they can set the agenda of the left so they end up fighting each other and one part of the left become effectively state agents pushing forward the agenda of the neo-con war machine ? The left should be far more sophisticated than this and see who the real enemy is, and focus on them. |
It was surely in response to the video about George's statements. Self-Evident no?
The rest is woo. |
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nekokate
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | Whilst expecting to get the usual outburst from Kate, I have one question we should all ponder: Of all the countries in the world, why did Kate choose to create a documentary on Iran and especially at this time when Iran is being set up to be attacked?
Has the state's control of the media become so powerful that they can set the agenda of the left so they end up fighting each other and one part of the left become effectively state agents pushing forward the agenda of the neo-con war machine? The left should be far more sophisticated than this and see who the real enemy is, and focus on them. |
My motivation for this "documentary" should be abundantly clear to anyone who follows the discussions in this forum. This is a forum about George Galloway. George Galloway was all over the news on gay websites because of some comments he made. I, like many people here, was unsure whether he was correct or not, so I decided to look further into the issue and I promised to write up my opinions. Which I did.
It's a little misleading to call it a documentary, too. I even admitted during the article that it was an opinion-piece examining both sides of the argument. Certainly not a dossier, either. You're being deliberately alarmist there.
I'm surprised you implied that I was effectively a state agent for the neo-con agenda. Considering my piece draws no conclusion and even seeks to explain the misconceptions surrounding what George Galloway actually meant in his statements, it seems that in your opinion, the minimum requirements for classification as a right-wing apologist are very slight indeed. I'm afraid you're suffering from exactly the same syndrome as those who declare even the slightest criticism of Israel to be anti-Semitic.
| Mandy wrote: | | I bet that you are likely to get more of a negative reaction in the UK to public homosexual activity than in Iran -- at least in Iran it is likely to be the government, rather than a crowd of drunken yobs hurling abuse and possibly much more. |
I've no idea how you can make a statement like that. Did you have a straight-face when you typed it? Because I didn't when I read it.
There is no predominantly Muslim country in the world in which public homosexual activity is likely to be tolerated to a greater extent than in the UK. Both Iran and the UK are blighted with widespread homophobia, and it is surely more of a problem in Iran. George Galloway himself has admitted this both implicitly and explicitly on the exact same broadcast of The Wright Stuff that Tatchell recently took some of his other comments from. Re-listen to that broadcast and tell me whether or not you hear George make the following statements:
"The young Iranian that we were going to deport back to a country that doesn't like gay people very much has been saved."
"The truth is that many religions - all religions probably - [...] are against gay people. [...] All religions in all societies discriminate against gay people."
Those statements are true, and demonstrably, George is brave enough to accept that fact. All religions discriminate against gay people. Now which country is more religious, Mandy? Is it the secular UK, where we sleep in on a Sunday and think Christmas is about getting gifts, or is it the theocratic, Shi'a Islamic Republic of Iran?
| Mandy wrote: | | I felt the article still came out against Iran, especially the view that the huge number of sex changes "is actually symptomatic of the inherent homophobia". To me, it is a symptom of the opposite, i.e. liberty in the whole sexual side. |
You're taking a quote from my essay and wrongly attributing it to me. This is such blatant cherry-picking I can't even believe I'm bothering to correct you. Where are your principles? What you chopped off that quote were the preceding words in the sentence which read "... it is reported that..." And it is indeed reported.
What I was actually doing was highlighting both sides of the argument regarding transsexualism in Iran. Anyone can see that if they correctly read the paragraph in question (the very last paragraph of my essay).
You remind me of a mini Joan Peters, who was so infamous for publishing cherry-picked quotes that Norman Finkelstein once joked she might as well have just replaced every instance of the word "not" with the "[...]" truncation. |
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til661
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| nekokate wrote: | | I'm surprised you implied that I was effectively a state agent for the neo-con agenda. |
Remember we've got that meeting with Cheney tomorrow Kate. He's going to tell us the action plan against Iran.....oh wait....oops I've said too much..... |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Splitters! |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| faceless wrote: | | Mandy, do you believe that gay people are persecuted in Iran? A yes or no answer will be fine. |
Depending on your definition of persecuted, gay people are effectively persecuted in every country. I think in the US military they are expelled if they are confirmed as gay, but there is a recent "don't ask - don't tell" policy. That is effectively saying keep it private or you will be punished.
I am unsure what British army policy is on gays/lesbians in the military.
They are probably less persecuted in Iran than in any other Middle Eastern country which are friends of the West but we hear none of this in the press.
The extradition case was being trumpeted up by the state media to be a situation to criticise Iran, and as a result George was asked to comment about it, and hence this thread. |
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nekokate
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| faceless wrote: | | Mandy, do you believe that gay people are persecuted in Iran? A yes or no answer will be fine. |
You'd have more luck getting a yes or no answer from Michael Howard. "Did you THREATEN to persecute him?!"
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til661
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| faceless wrote: | | Splitters! |
Don't you oppress me
Now I want to watch Life of Brian |
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til661
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | | faceless wrote: | | Mandy, do you believe that gay people are persecuted in Iran? A yes or no answer will be fine. |
Depending on your definition of persecuted, gay people are effectively persecuted in every country. I think in the US military they are expelled if they are confirmed as gay, but there is a recent "don't ask - don't tell" policy. That is effectively saying keep it private or you will be punished.
I am unsure what British army policy is on gays/lesbians in the military.
They are probably less persecuted in Iran than in any other Middle Eastern country which are friends of the West but we hear none of this in the press.
The extradition case was being trumpeted up by the state media to be a situation to criticise Iran, and as a result George was asked to comment about it, and hence this thread. |
Explain how the British State persecutes gay people.
Openly gay people are allowed to serve in the British military and in fact are allowed to serve in the militaries of every western European nation, here's a handy cut-out-and-keep graph!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gay_military.png |
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Salim201
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: |
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Is it just me or does anyone else see almost no point to this thread. What goes on in Iran is a matter for Iranians and of no relevance to non-iranians. Its a harmless essay and may interest some but the tinge of self-serving moralising in this thread in kind of pathetic, so what if the UK has a better record on gay rights than Iran. Iran's a third world country thousands of miles away with all sorts of internal issues that we don't know about, none of us have been there, we probably wouldn't be allowed we've got troops surrounding their borders.
suppose some iranian student wrote an essay on the breakdown of social order in Britain, teen pregnancies, suicide rates, obesity etc, it would have zero moral value and I certianly wouldn't be reading it, i'd tell the guy to lobby his own gov't. I think that's the point mandy was trying to make. |
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