what do we do to get it stopped? ( from saturdays show )

[luke]

mandy, i couldn't watch that crying one ... but the ron paul one i hope that idea catches on ... funnily enough i saw some video on youtube where some strippers have come out in support of ron paul

i'll take a look at that moveon.org salim, it was them wasn't it recently that did the betray us / petraeus ads? that caused a bit of an uproar on fox - what was interesting was most of the funding they get is all from tiny donations, but lots of them ...

an 'alternative to mass media' sounds like quite a task! the mass media we're taking on, and the government, spend billions on getting their message out there

the problem is, we have an alternative media now, but its kinda preaching to the choir. its the people that are easily led by propaganda and fear that you wanna reach ...

that why i think tackling the media we have now has got to be a part of solution ... we need a country debate about media ownership and what it means ...

don't anyone get worked up over this thread, its just supposed to be a kicking about of ideas, i'll have a smoke for you all to bring about some calmness salim, you know faceless is on side but i bet 30k would be better spent by respect than by placing an advert in the paper ...

for 30k i bet you could get people in the all main citys across the country at a weekend handing leaflets out dispelling some on the myths of this war on terror, iraq, iran etc ... you know, lots of people still think ahmadinejad said he wants to wipe israel of the map - i read in the sun a while back and apparently he's been calling for new holocaust - they actually used the word holocaust!

getting rid of that lie, as well as making people think about how and why it was that they could have been so easily mised over it, would be a result

[Mandy]

In light of Luke's / Salim's comments, I thought this was interesting

[Mandy]

FYI, a strong statement by Ron Paul .. and he is up against the establishment, and also seeking many small donations

[Salim201]

no its a good forum and you do great work, but i just don't like it when people just pooh pooh ideas!!

[mickyv]

I think Luke is right in identifying that hurting the Government financially would be very effective; most forms of civil disobedience seems now to be have been made either illegal, or can be countered by Police actions, such as arresting “die-in” protesters for “obstruction”. However as far as I know, the right to boycott is still legal, so how about targeting all New Labour donors ? A list is needed of exactly who & what businesses these donors represent, and these should then be the subjects of mass & organised boycotts, until the Party(ies) they fund start practising an ethical & moral foreign policy; starting with an immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq AND Afghanistan.

I also read about an American anti-war group called ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism); and was not only impressed but surprised to learn that they have not only ex-American troops as members, but also CURRENT troops; and these are used to lead 1,000-person “die-ins” complete with mock 21-gun salutes ! They also use Iraq veterans to demonstrate at military recruitment centres, and get them to walk through the Pentagon wearing anti-war T-shirts. Using Iraqi veterans is very powerful, and using current serving soldiers is even more powerful still, but I’m sure that any serving British Army personnel would not be allowed to protest, and I’m still amazed & intrigued that US troops apparently can.

[mickyv]

This Blogger’s despair at our collective helplessness in stopping the mad murderous mayhem, is particularly forceful;

http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2007/09/lets-make-it-about-you-can-we-stop.html

Where is that list of New Labour Donors ? And what about all those Unions that fund New Labour; aren't Unionists by definition supposed to be all about collective political power, or are they now all just reduced to being unthinking automatic funders of modern murderous imperialism through their subs being siphoned off without them even noticing or caring any more ? Maybe that is the reason why they are still allowed to exist,

[mickyv]

Well I’ve dug up some very detailed info on Labour Donors, exactly the info that is needed, but the problem is that it’s about 5 years out of date as the Website seems to have ceased around 2001. Still it makes fascinating reading, and it states that even back then “ Trade Unions, who once generated 90% of the Party's income, now provide only 30% “; so I wonder what it is now. Interesting also that the single biggest donor back then was Lord David Sainsbury, who gave a total of £9 million in 5 years; so for a start if he is still funding New Labour then perhaps an high profile mass campaign by the anti-war movement to boycott the supermarket chain in which his has £1.3 billion worth of shares, might cause him to stem his ample propping up of the Government. Also according to this recent BBC report, Labour was in debt by £20.2m as of 30 June this year, so any cut backs in funding would be a major concern for them. In this same report it mentions that, somewhat ironically, two of the current biggest Donors are Iranian millionaire Mahmoud Khayami, who gave £500,000, and Muslim Friends of Labour gave £300,000 !

Here are the links;

http://www.red-star-research.org.uk/subframe3.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6956564.stm


(Incidentally I visited the Stopthewarcoalition Site, and was not very impressed, and there seems to be no forum to stimulate debate & ideas.)

[mickyv]

I’m interested to hear what people think about a boycotting campaign against New Labour Donors, and the businesses they represent. It’s really just an extension of what GG does when he targets pro-war MPs, and when he urges people to vote out all those MPs who voted for the war. The way I can see it working is that a (s)Hit List of Donors is published in campaign ads, (which will give them bad press for a start), with a message along the lines of “Ashamed of what is being done in your name, but feel powerless & voiceless ? Send a message that’s too costly to be ignored; boycott the following underwriters of British foreign policy ;-“

Any thoughts welcomed, especially constructive critical ones !

[luke]

yeah i think its a good idea mickyv, hitting them financially is probably the only way we can have any effect without risking ending up in trouble with the police

i was thinking, if we emailed labour, would we be able to get a list of the current donors? that informations not secret is it? or is it ...

if people like galloway, the stop the war coalition, respect etc could join up on some mass boycott, collectively they must have a big mailing list they can reach. there was loads on that first march, i bet all them people plus loads more who are now against the war, who like you say feel powerless, would be up for trying it. we all need to consume less anyway!

[mickyv]

Thanks Luke, but your’re only encouraging me into thinking that it’s a feasible idea; I need somebody to pour cold water on it (but only through rational points please), otherwise I’ll have to keep thinking about carrying this forward !

“MAKE A DIFFERENCE; SHOP ELSEWHERE” – T-Shirt idea with a list of businesses to boycott on the back.

“ ETHICAL SHOPPER” - Badge

“CONSUMER WITH A CONSCIENCE” – Shopping bag slogan.

[luke]

i was thinking the same kinda thing, also viral emails - if we can come up with something strong that people would want to forward on, we could reach loads of people plus its something easy people can take part it, doesn't require any effort - just boycott these places

if might be worth backing this up with a nice simple kinda point by point what the war is really about and how we're being mislead, maybe the stopthewar has something similar

i think it would be good to have it based around the bring the troops home message, i think more people are interested in bringing our troops back then worrying about civilians casualties

maybe someone will come and tell us we're both deluded mickyv ... i'm thinking at the moment though its gotta be worth a try ...

[faceless]

I reckon there'd need to be a snappy slogan to make this work. I was thinking something like 'Human Power' would appeal to people's desire to do something (based on the hopelessness that a lot of people feel), while also emphasising that it's not about borders, but people.

[mickyv]

Luke,

I like the email idea, but not sure the thing about explaining the war in simple points is really needed, well not straight upfront, as most people either oppose the war mongers on basic principles, or already know a lot about the aims of these war-mongers. For sure whoever is organising this campaign will need both to have clear aims and to be very well informed, and certainly info packs should be readily available to those who seek them, but trying to convince others upfront of what we think the war is really about seems a little bit off-putting, if not patronising ?

Yes a sub-campaign, or an initial focus on bringing the troops home seems like a good idea, but the overall message of the campaign, ie the boycotting of the funders of immoral wars, should always be present.

Faceless,

Yes all campaigns need snappy slogans to personify the objectives, perhaps something along the lines of the following;

BOYCOTT INJUSTICE.

I’M NOT THE ONLY ONE. – (GG will like that one !)

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT IN THE WORLD.

BE PART OF THE RESISTANCE.


And clever saying can also be utilised, like;

“War is costly. Peace is priceless.”

“If you think you're too small to have an impact, try going to bed with a mosquito in the room.”

[luke]

[luke]

i've emailed labour to see if i can get the donor info ...