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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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 Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: salman rushdie, the satanic verses and his knighthood |
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what did people think of salman rushdie receiving a knighthood?
has anyone ever read the satanic verses? i don't know really know anything about it, except it angered a lot of people and fomented divisions
the media are jumping all over the anger his receiving a knighthood has caused around the world 
the only person i see on the honors list who i was pleased to see there was shami chakrabarti from liberty  |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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What was his knighthood for? I thought it was meant to be for services to the nation, but I don't know anyone who says that he's affected their lives.
It does seem a completely political move by Blair. |
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nekokate
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I once got The Satanic Verses out of the library, just out of curiosity, and I managed about 20 pages before I put it down. It had nothing to do with any offensiveness, it was just shit. I totally couldn't get into it.
The offense it caused some Muslims was because apparently he based it on the several (supposed) historical instances of prophets having verses of Holy Books "revealed to them" (like Allah revealed to Mohammed through the Archangel Gabriel) and then finding out later that it wasn't God who was giving them text, but the Devil fucking around with them - hence what they thought was scripture from God were infact Satanic verses. The Ayatollah Khomeini got really pissed off about Rushdie's novel, hence the fatwa.
I couldn't get interested in the book enough to get through it, but however offensive it was I can't possibly agree with him deserving to be killed under ancient Islamic law, and it must have been a crap life for him having to sneak around and live in secret locations, etc.
Equally, I can't possibly agree with him getting a knighthood; what the hell has he done for the country?? And doesn't a knighthood require you to have a sword waved near your neck? I'd have thought, considering his past, he wouldn't be too keen on that idea. |
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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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'services to literature'
teddy sheringham got a cbe for 'services to football'! the co-founder of agent provocateur ( http://www.agentprovocateur.com ;) ) got a cbe as well - 'services to fashion'  the guy who puts on glastonbury got one as well ... its a right odd list, nicky clarke for 'services to hairdressing' come on ... services to hairdressing?! the guy who plays dame edna everage as well ... the whole things ridiculous, except shami's of course |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Rushdie made a LOT of people hate the UK .. and the knighthood reopened old wounds, and EVEN WORSE now taints the UK with effectively "agreeing" with Rushdie's views.
This clearly was a Blair action in his final days, and now Bush is considering making Blair a Middle East envoy : http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/uk_politics/6222848.stm
Like asking Hitler to look after the camp survivors after WWII
Everything is being done "by the powers that be" to create a clash of civilizations (i.e. WW4/WW5) where citizens will ALL be losers, but the MIC will be more powerful and rich. Brown is continuing this :
p.s. An equivalence would be if Iran or Pakistan "knighted" Irving. |
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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | | Rushdie made a LOT of people hate the UK .. and the knighthood reopened old wounds, and EVEN WORSE now taints the UK with effectively "agreeing" with Rushdie's views. |
why did they hate the uk though for a book that he wrote? i mean, i can understand now, cos he's been knighted, but before?
| Mandy wrote: | | Everything is being done "by the powers that be" to create a clash of civilizations (i.e. WW4/WW5) where citizens will ALL be losers, but the MIC will be more powerful and rich. Brown is continuing this : |
thats articles weird, its start off talking terrorism, then goes on to gun crime and bad behavior etc - are those now classed as terrorism along with animal rights protesters etc?
theres never anything to do with addressing the grievances of 'extremists'
cough cough police state!  |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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A far closer to home real-life comparison is this.
Wonder what the British Government's policy on "freedom of speech" will lie on this one (since any prosecution has to be legal under EU law, i.e. application to UK as well)
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| luke wrote: | | why did they hate the uk though for a book that he wrote? i mean, i can understand now, cos he's been knighted, but before? |
Because the government can always find ways to stop a book if they don't like it, especially by a "foreigner". Also the millions in tax money spent on police protection (as opposed to Rushdie paying for the extra security like most other "celebrities") gives Rushdie a veneer of establishment backing, especially when the government on this point was a pole bearer for freedom of speech (which is quickly forgotten of-course when other people discuss taboo topics)
| luke wrote: |
thats articles weird, its start off talking terrorism, then goes on to gun crime and bad behavior etc - are those now classed as terrorism along with animal rights protesters etc?
theres never anything to do with addressing the grievances of 'extremists'
cough cough police state! |
Yep .. POLICE STATE ... indeed, in USA most protests are now legally classified as terrorism (including holding up traffic because you are causing economic loss to other citizens by delaying them)
Alex Jones on http://prisonplanet.com/ covers this.
Once every citizen technically breaks the law, the government has control on society since the government can decide who to prosecute (e.g. people on couchtripper), and who not to (the ones who read Murdoch media & pay for Sky). |
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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | | Because the government can always find ways to stop a book if they don't like it, especially by a "foreigner". Also the millions in tax money spent on police protection (as opposed to Rushdie paying for the extra security like most other "celebrities"). |
was it only this country that is was released in though? i can kinda see with the protection thing, he shouldn't have got it anyway - not paid for by tax payers
| Mandy wrote: | | Yep .. POLICE STATE ... indeed, in USA most protests are now legally classified as terrorism (including holding up traffic because you are causing economic loss to other citizens by delaying them) |
thats crazy, its like those people arrested the other week in london for wearing hezbollah and hamas tee shirts. i'm amazed really at what they're getting away with now
yeah i check his stuff now and then, he rants on a bit but they have some good articles up - as long they link to sources |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| luke wrote: | | was it only this country that is was released in though? i can kinda see with the protection thing, he shouldn't have got it anyway - not paid for by tax payers |
I think it was translated to many languages. The issue is similar to when an ethnic minority is called names by the dominant class; versus the ethnic minority calling the dominant class a name. The former is more serious due to the "background".
Britain and US, have been colonising / controlling the Middle East since end of WWI. English version of the book was probably the one which sold the most. In any case, Rusdie was resident in UK at the time I believe (and then moved to USA) |
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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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thanks mandy
regarding what i said earlier about the co-founder of agent provocateur, he doesn't want it
| Quote: | Designer rejects MBE from 'morally corrupt' Blair
James Orr and Peter Walker
Wednesday June 20, 2007
Guardian Unlimited
The co-founder of lingerie brand Agent Provocateur today rejected his MBE after branding Tony Blair "morally corrupt".
Joseph Corre was awarded the title for his services to the fashion industry in the Queen's birthday honours list last week.
But today Mr Corre, the son of fashion designer Dame Vivienne Westwood, took the decision to refuse the award, saying he could not accept the prime minister as "someone capable of giving an honour".
Mr Corre, 39, said in a statement: "After some serious reflection I have decided that I cannot accept it.
"I have been chosen by an organisation headed by a prime minister whom I find morally corrupt.
"To accept this MBE as an honour would mean to me that I would have to accept the prime minister as someone capable of giving an honour, ie, an honourable man, which I cannot find it in my heart to do."
Mr Corre and his wife and co-founder of Agent Provocateur, Serena Rees, set out to create a lingerie brand devoid of "British prudery" more than 10 years ago.
The couple opened their first store in Soho, London, in December 1994. The chain has since expanded to 30 shops worldwide.
Their stores, website and catalogue business now sell everything from classy underwear to whips.
Ms Rees, 38, also received an MBE together with her husband, but is said to be "delighted" to have been recognised.
A spokeswoman for the chain said Ms Rees would not be rejecting the honour. The spokeswoman said: "It is a great achievement for her personally, and indeed for the company that her contribution to fashion has been acknowledged in this way."
A spokeswoman for the Cabinet Office, which compiled the Honours list, said Mr Corre had earlier written to Downing Street confirming he would accept an MBE.
Neither the Cabinet Office's ceremonial secretariat nor Downing Street's ceremonial unit had been notified about Mr Corre's subsequent change of heart, she said.
"We have not heard anything from him. However if he wants to go back on it, it is a fairly easy process. He just needs to let someone know and they won't invite him to the investiture, where the Queen hands out the medals," the spokeswoman said.
Mr Corre's statement began: "Initially I was very flattered to have my work with Agent Provocateur recognised by the establishment.
"It even gave me a kick to imagine what some of the bureaucrats and censors I have had to fight up to now must think.
"However, after some serious reflection I have decided that I cannot accept it ... This in no way reflects on my opinion of the Queen whom I respect and would be honoured to have as a customer."
Mr Corre said the Agent Provocateur team should all "stand proud for what they have accomplished" and "don't need a medal to prove it".
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,2107433,00.html
***
Full text of Joseph Corre's statement
The following is the full statement issued today by Joseph Corre of Agent Provocateur about his MBE award
Wednesday June 20, 2007
Guardian Unlimited
Initially I was very flattered to have my work with Agent Provocateur recognised by the establishment.
It even gave me a kick to imagine what some of the bureaucrats and censors I have had to fight up to now must think.
However, after some serious reflection I have decided that I cannot accept it.
I have been chosen by an organisation headed by a prime minister who I find morally corrupt, who has been involved in organised lying to the point where thousands of people including children have suffered death, detention and torture in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Furthermore, against this backdrop, we are to have our hard-fought civil liberties eroded as a consequence (don't forget Jean Charles de Menezes or our rights to habeas corpus).
To accept this MBE as an honour would mean to me that I would have to accept the prime minister as someone capable of giving an honour - ie, an honourable man, which I cannot find it in my heart to do.
This in no way reflects on my opinion of the Queen, whom I respect and would be honoured to have as a customer. In fact I think she would agree with me.
This has been a personal decision because the MBE is a personal award. [Co-founder] Serena Rees will make her own personal decision as to accepting this award.
However, the team at Agent Provocateur should all stand proud for what they have accomplished this far and they don't need a medal to prove it.
Joseph Corre Knickers Forever!
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,2107443,00.html |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| That's quite something that he refused it, but his partner's taking it. I'd dump her. haha |
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Brown Sauce
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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“The anti-Christ can be born from piety itself, from excessive love of God or of the truth, as the heretic is born from the saint and the possessed from the seer...perhaps the mission of those who love mankind, is to make people laugh at the truth, to make the truth laugh, because the only truth lies in learning to free ourselves from the insane passion for the truth.”
Umberto Eco, from "The Name of the Rose".
Religious leaders want someone else to kill someone because of a few miserable words. When the satanic verses was first released, I tried to read it. More I suspect than most of the cultured types that wanted to see it's author dead. "Midnights Children" remains a favourite of mine, but I couldn't get through this one. Maybe because it weighed 15 damned - lovely? - kilos, and it was too much for my rucksack. I do remember thinking though, that if islam, or any religion for that matter is not strong enough to be able to laugh at something it perceives as evil, then what is it? Mere opium for the people ?
I wonder what the mullah Nasrudin would say.
"May the Will of Allah be done," a pious man was saying about something or the other. "It always is, in any case," said Mullah Nasruddin. "How can you prove that, Mullah?" asked the man. "Quite simply. If it wasn't always being done, then surely at some time or another my will would be done, wouldn't it?"
I do not like god fearing pious inadequates. Doesn't matter if they come from Tehran, Washington, or London.
As for the knighthood, I think it's a political windup. They can't have too many tools left ... |
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behroze
Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: Re: salman rushdie, the satanic verses and his knighthood |
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| luke wrote: | what did people think of salman rushdie receiving a knighthood?
has anyone ever read the satanic verses? i don't know really know anything about it, except it angered a lot of people and fomented divisions
the media are jumping all over the anger his receiving a knighthood has caused around the world
the only person i see on the honors list who i was pleased to see there was shami chakrabarti from liberty |
I read The Satanic Verses. I liked it very much. It is a bit slow at the beginning I admit but worth reading.
I come from a Muslim background and have contact with many Muslims. I am a devout atheist. So far, every Muslim I have talked to who holds an opinion on the book never actually read the book. They heard from their sheikh or mullah that the book is evil and so they just parroted the opinion without actually reading the book. If they actually read the book they would realize, in my opinion, that the claims made against the book are absurd.
While reading the book, trying to be unbiased and keeping in mind the controversy over it, I honestly tried to find something in the book that I would think would raise the ire of Muslims. I found nothing! The whole episode was and is about a bunch of twits getting their knickers in a knot. I bet you that 99.99% of the people demonstrating over Rushdie's knighthood have never read the book. Reminds me of the Danish cartoons episode. There were thousands (if not millions) of people demonstrating but most had not even seen the cartoons.
To paraphrase a favourite lynch-pin around here: God is not great and religion DOES poison everything. In my humble opinion that is. |
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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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thanks behroze
thats unfortunately like a lot of things, even galloway - lots of people hate him, they don't really know why, or know anything about him or what he stands for, but they see the media against him, him as a cat in big brother and a pic with a saddam and thats enough for them
from the guardian on how he was picked
| Quote: | The committee that recommended Salman Rushdie for a knighthood did not discuss any possible political ramifications and never imagined that the award would provoke the furious response that it has done in parts of the Muslim world, the Guardian has learnt.
It also emerged yesterday that the writers' organisation that led the lobbying for the author of Midnight's Children and The Satanic Verses to be knighted had originally hoped that the honour would lead to better relations between Britain and Asia.
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It was chaired by Lord Rothschild, the investment banker and former chairman of the trustees of the National Gallery. The other committee members are Jenny Abramsky, the BBC's director of radio and music; novelist and poet Ben Okri, who is vice-president of the English chapter of PEN International, which campaigns on behalf of writers who face persecution; Andreas Whittam Smith, former editor of the Independent; John Gross, the author and former theatre critic of the Sunday Telegraph; and two permanent secretaries, one from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and one from the Scottish executive. |
full article at http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,2106966,00.html |
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