New Anti-War Single with Ian Brown and Sinead O'Connor!

[Salim201]

watch the video on blairwatch, brilliant song hope it does well!

http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/

[mickyv]

Thanks Salim, & yes it's a brilliant song.

Also thanks for the Site as I wasn't aware of it before, I'll add it to my favourite right next to http://christopherhitchenswatch.blogspot.com/.

[Salim201]

haha i didn't know the hitchens one, is that real or a joke!

[mickyv]

It's appears to be real. For example it contains references to his friendship with Holocaust Deniers, including that of David Irving, whose own website verifies this. Anyhow I'm thankful, as it was from this Site that I found this;

http://virtualyasukuni.blogspot.com/

[Salim201]

i heard about his support of David Irving, if you think that was bad thing by the way, i'm gonna have to disagree! hitch wasn't supporting his views just his right to express them, and our right to the opportunity for variable discourse. lol sorry about the mini-rant, i'm checking out the other site now, cheers!

[mickyv]

I agree that accusations of being friendly and/or supportive of Holocaust Deniers is not a charge to be made lightly, and I'm against people smearing people, but as way of contrast consider this;

Many serious commentators have picked-up and remarked about the follow;-


That he praised David Irving in print as a “great” historian. He called him “a great historian” well after it was apparent that he was, in fact, a phoney historian who was, in fact, a great supporter of Nazism.

Also;

"Hitchens revealed another unusual rightwing friend, during the course of the conversation. He is a fan of some of the work of David Irving, a historian who recently served time in an Austrian prison for Holocaust denial."

(Gideon Rachman, chief foriegn affairs columnist of the Financial Times)

So friendly that he had Irving over to his house for dinner at least three times by his own admission, collaborated by Irving on his own website.

He was/is? very friendly with Robert Faurisson the French Holocaust denier who claimed the gas chambers at Auschwitz didn't exist. So friendly that Faurisson not only thanks Hitchens in a preface to a book, but actually listed him as one of "Jews who are partial or full revisionists", in backing up the book's Holocaust Denial thesis !

And then we have the following comments various people have reported;

Edward Jay Epstein publicly recalled a dinner in the Royalton Hotel in New York where Epstein said Hitchens had doubted the Holocaust was quite what it's cracked up to be. In Epstein's memory Hitchens belittled the idea that six million Jews died, said the number was much less


Dennis Perrin, publicly recalled Hitchens talking to him some years ago about the Holocaust: "Take the claim that gassed Jews were turned into soap and lampshades. 'Stalinist fiction, my dear boy,' he said with a smile."


Now all this doesn’t prove that Hitchens is a Holocaust Denier, but imagine if it was Galloway with this sort of circumstantial evidence against him; I’m pretty certain that he would have been ostracised from Public Life very very quickly.

[popinjay]

Love the song.

[Salim201]

Aside from the point that ostracism from Public Life is normally a very good indicator what your doing right! I think guilt by association is nonsense, if someone wants to attack the substance of someones arguments then thats fair, but when you investigate what someone has said in private about triviality, (the numbers of holocaust victims has been disputed by mainstream historians aswell, not that its something that should even be debated), and then try to extrapolate something which has never been stated by that person and contradicts what they have said explicity many times, then your just speculating with the sole aim of defamation.

You write a long speculative piece that would convince (mislead) anyone who hasn't followed the individuals and controversies you mention. Just on one point, you fail to mention that Raul Hilberg has praised Irvings abilities as an historian. Hardly a controversial figure. But essentially I think this is a serious issue of freedom of expression, thats the only reason I've taken this so far! I only studied the Holocaust marginally, I'm not one of those fixated on the figures and evidence and trying to link it to global conspiracy, but if someone wants to preoccupy themselves with that then it goes without saying they have a right to do so, and should be defended in the midst criticism regardless of how unpopular their views may be, which is why I repsect and admire those who did, Norman Finkelstein, Hitchens, Chomsky, and to some extent Nick Cohen all get points in my book!

[mickyv]

Please don’t misunderstand my point; which was that for somebody in the Public Eye, especially a journalist, to be associated with a vile notorious Nazi sympathiser like David Irving, would normally result in a huge outcry & extreme marginalisation. The “long speculative piece” was not written by me, but were just lifted quotes that I choose specifically ;

a) to illustrate that Hitchens was more than championing Irving’s “Free Speech”, in that for a while Irving was in his close circle of friends, until he realised the damage the friendship was doing to what little reputation he still has, and so of course he dumped him.

b) to illustrate circumstantial evidence in the various reported saying of Hitchens, that do appear to be concordance with that of all Holocaust Deniers, in belittling the Final Solution.


I just couldn’t help imagining what the consequences would have been if it had been Galloway being friendly with Irving and “championing” his “freedom of speech”, especially with all those alleged comments rubbishing the Holocaust. I think we both know that there would have been a campaign to prosecute him, just as Irving was prosecuted, and for sure his Public Career would have be over.

This was point in bringing up this matter up, but as you now chose to mix it with the Freedom of Expression argument, I am quite happy to debate this also, but I need to know where you stand on this; ie. Do you believe in absolute “Free Speech” or so you believe in “Free Speech” but subject to social responsibilities ?

(I cringed at the including of Hitchens & Cohen’s names with Chomsky & Finkelstein ! People who still try to justify the Holocaust in Iraq should forfeit anybody taking them seriously by default, nevermind getting “points” in anybody’s book !!)

[Salim201]

yeah I can't help believing the media have a distinct double standard when dealing with left wing MP's and conservative journalists, although you have to remember where Hitchens started, he has some brilliant work and articles which even Galloway lauded and acknowledged. His stand was laudable at the time because it did lose him support and marginalise him to some extent. He may have apostatised now but that doesn't divert from the good work he's done! Same goes for Cohen to an extent. Hitchens is on the side of the powerful so its quite obvious his private actions are not going to effect his public life. You say you've "illustrated that Hitchens was more than championing Irving’s “Free Speech” but I don't think you have and I've heard Hitchens speak a few times debate on this topic which you should check out they're on youtube, his position is pretty clear and for me, not controversial.

As an aside there is obviously an obligation on the individual not to abuse their freedom of speech, incidentally I disagree with the danish cartoons being used as an example of freedom of speech, its simply an outright racist attack and its quite a shame that such an admirable concept was abused for something like that. Its way too long for both of us to go on about freedom of speech I'm sure our views are vaguely similar.. may have to agree to disagree on specific issues where responsibility if violated, but thats one of the problems when you assert social responsibility it becomes more abstract.

[mickyv]

It seems you now see my point about double standards (as you put it), but I don’t understand how Hitchens work (brilliant or not) has really anything to do with this.

In fact a have a shelf full of his books, including one that I rate as outstanding, but all these were written when he was still sane, or as GG put it, when he was still a “Butterfly”.

Not sure about your point about “his private actions are not going to effect his public life”, as everybody in the public area, especially the political area, are scrutinised & judged by every aspect of both their private & public lives”.

You don’t think that I’ve illustrated that Hitchens was more than championing Irving’s “Free Speech”? That’s your prerogative, which you seem to base on what Hitchens is NOW saying; but I myself think that if Hitchens was only motivated in championing Free Speech, he would have just done so in print, without having to soiled himself by having a intimate association with such a notorious self-confessed Nazi sympathiser, whom would not even be touched with a barge pole by any decent person. Still you might find these interesting reading ;


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/dance-hitchens-dance_b_1707.html

http://dir.salon.com/story/books/review/2005/02/07/lipstadt/index.html?pn=2


Incidentally did you see my query re Hitchens regarding 9/11 related Islamophobia on the Hitchens Vietnam thread ? I wonder if his about-face on the Holocaust has anything to do with this, or perhaps more likely, his quite late “discovery” of his Jewish ancestry (I put “discovery” in quotes because his brother Peter denies the Jewish connection !) ?

Finally it would appear that yes we do share a (vaguely!) common view point regarding the issue of Free Speech.

[Salim201]

would you put Irving in a similar category as Joan Peters, Daniel Goldhagen who have let their ideology get in the way of their history which has led to some terrible scholarship at best and outright falshoods. Btw dealing with the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and the "innate" racism of German people are quite sensitive topics to falsify..

[luke]

interview here with ian brown

http://download.yousendit.com/C48877421BFF7BD3

"you're supposed to get mellower aren't you as you get older, but i'm still left wing of anarchist me, i've not heard anyone else put the war down, i've yet to meet anyone who supports the war, why is it theres no 21 year old kids out there ranting and raving about the war ..."

[DJJA]

Great interview and you picked out a great quote there. My other fave was when Ian was talking about the early days of the stone roses when he said that John Squire had mastered 3 blind mice and they were ready to go!

[luke]

short interview;