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luke

Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: Learn from the fall of Rome, US warned

Mandy

Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject:

Yep ... that is #3 story on http://www.spiderednews.com/

faceless
admin

Joined: 25 Apr 2006

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject:

who are the Barbarians in this comparison, I wonder?

Mandy

Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject:

faceless wrote:

who are the Barbarians in this comparison, I wonder?

I am not familiar with the history of the fall of Rome, but there was a recent BBC drama about it. I think Rome decayed from within .. and hence the warning. Indeed, having Barbarians at the gate can extend the life of an empire (by providing an external enemy to focus on .. or so I recall from Psychology 101).

I wonder who will be the soldiers / army / politicians who "Crosses the Rubicon" in the US and which will try to re-impose some sense of sanity in US policies ..

Lostinthestates

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Location: Bethlehem, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject:

Think it is a bit funny comparing the US in modern surroundings with the time of the Romans, where the empire was actually continuously challenged by surrounding countries and tribes. Don't quite think Canada or Mexico are going to storm DC and tear down the buildings and set fire to it Laughing

I think the US policies might not be the brightest but right now the US is still the country the whole world orientates itself on (economically and technology wise). Can't quite see the US's world supremacy ending in the next few months or years - decades perhaps!

luke

Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:45 pm Post subject:

i think its a good comparission lostinstates, if you look at the decline of the roman empire;

Quote:

The great historian, Gibbons, who wrote The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, gave five reasons for the fall of the great dynasty.

First: Rapid increase of divorce, with the undermining of the sanctity of the home, which is the basis of society.

Second: Higher and higher taxes; the spending of money for bread and celebrations.

Third: The mad craze for pleasure, sports becoming every year more exciting and more brutal.

Fourth: The building of gigantic armaments, when the real enemy was within; the decadence of the people.

Fifth: The decay of religion; faith fading into mere form, losing touch with life, and becoming impotent to guide it.

i can see american dollar supremacy ending pretty soon ... then what ...

Mandy

Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject:

Lostinthestates wrote:

With a bit of artistic license, historians can look back and say the US thought it was challenged on all fronts globally (war on terror / war on communism / war on liberals / war on anyone who didn't bow to the emperors' (aka Bush) dictates)

In any case, you are being too melodramatically about a storming army ... the article is about decaying from the center .. I wonder if your read it. Also, we have never had a capitalist society as leveraged as this. Who knows what it would take to upset the cart. Do you remember the LA riots ? That's more likely what will happen when the underclass say enough ...

Lostinthestates

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Location: Bethlehem, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject:

luke wrote:

i think its a good comparission lostinstates, if you look at the decline of the roman empire;

Quote:

i can see american dollar supremacy ending pretty soon ... then what ...

I hadn't heard about the divorce rate being one of the reason the Roman empire fell apart before, but this is not an American phenomena but a world wide one - so I don't think you can really use that as an arguement.
Not quite sure about the tax thin either quite honestly - I used to live in Germany and the taxes are much higher there than in the US. Actually they seem to be even lower than in the UK as I am getting much more paid out from my pay cheque as I used to in the UK since moving to the US.
I think again that the third point applies more to the whole world rather than to the US only (look at the Olympic celebration in Beijing and what they have already done even before the games have started).
I will give you that on the forth point - makes me feel sick how wasteful people are in the US!
On the fifth point - I wish that was the case! I think Americans are religious extremists (well not everyone of course as is the case with all my other points). I think religion is far to predominant in the US and a weakening of the church would probably be a good thing for the US ... just my personal opinion.

So based on your 5 points I still can't quite see how the US is going to loose its position as the powerhouse of the world - even though sometimes (especially when listening to Bush) I sometimes wish that the US's influence may wane!

Mandy

Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject:

Lostinthestates wrote:

Yes, it can be used .. indeed, when you say world-wide, this means the "empire" (I doubt if you have any clue about the divorce rates in North Korea, Syria, Iraq

Lostinthestates wrote:

Not quite sure about the tax thin either quite honestly - I used to live in Germany and the taxes are much higher there than in the US.

But they get far more back in quality services, pensions, social security etc, so the "Net" tax is less in germany (not least since they are not funding a global war .. they just had to be bled slowly by Israel.

Lostinthestates wrote:

Actually they seem to be even lower than in the UK as I am getting much more paid out from my pay cheque as I used to in the UK since moving to the US.

In UK you got free NHS, health care .. something you have to pay for in USA. Also, the taxes in US are artificially held down : look at the fed & state borrowings .. MANY TRILLIONS

Lostinthestates wrote:

I think again that the third point applies more to the whole world rather than to the US only (look at the Olympic celebration in Beijing and what they have already done even before the games have started).

Probably cost a fraction of what it would cost if hosted in USA ..

Lostinthestates wrote:

On the fifth point - I wish that was the case! I think Americans are religious extremists (well not everyone of course as is the case with all my other points). I think religion is far to predominant in the US and a weakening of the church would probably be a good thing for the US ... just my personal opinion.

Most religions espouse peace / don't covet they neighbor's resources / don't kill .. so there has been a drop in these traditional religions, replaced by a cult-like neo-con, pro-zionist espousing nut-cases ..

Lostinthestates wrote:

So based on your 5 points I still can't quite see how the US is going to loose its position as the powerhouse of the world - even though sometimes (especially when listening to Bush) I sometimes wish that the US's influence may wane!

Watch the infrastructure crumble around you (see thread in News forum about the Bridge collapse)

Lostinthestates

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Location: Bethlehem, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject:

Mandy wrote:

War on communism isn't really a problem anymore today - the US and China are happy economic friends! Bush is out next year - so no more bowing to the emperor! And probably the US will pull out of Iraq once the new 'emperor' has been elected. To fall a country needs to be challenged by someone else or just crumble and disappear - and I cannot see this happening in the next few years. I actually think you are over dramatising things when you really think the US is coming to an end - I just can't see it happen! And what would your alternative be?

Mandy

Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject:

Lostinthestates wrote:

Not been following the news about Putin's Saber rattling, and all those military bases which are "coincidentally" surrounding china ?

regarding Bush being out, POSSIBLY .. but I can be 100% sure there will be a new neo-con emperor who is following the same agenda.

For a country to fall, the timescale might be decades, not years .. but regarding seeing it, think back to New Orleans, civil unrest in LA, or any major natural disaster for a taste of what will happen : The poor will be left to fend and fight for themselves, whilst the rich will be behind high walls and heavily armed.

You say "I actually think you are over dramatising things " .. I am pretty sure you DIDN'T read the article .. This article was by the TOP US GOVERNMENT INSPECTOR warning what would likely happen if the present neo-con policies continue (which shows every since of not changing)

Lostinthestates

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Location: Bethlehem, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject:

Mandy wrote:

I hadn't heard about the divorce rate being one of the reason the Roman empire fell apart before, but this is not an American phenomena but a world wide one - so I don't think you can really use that as an arguement.

Yes, it can be used .. indeed, when you say world-wide, this means the "empire" (I doubt if you have any clue about the divorce rates in North Korea, Syria, Iraq

I think 'empire' is by far the wrong word - divorce is seen as liberation my many people (all around the world!) stuck in unhappy marriages! and I am sure nobody knows the divorce rate in North Korea!!

Mandy wrote:

In UK you got free NHS, health care .. something you have to pay for in USA. Also, the taxes in US are artificially held down : look at the fed & state borrowings .. MANY TRILLIONS

Crap on the NHS - the whole 'free health care' thing is slightly over hyped. People die on the NHS because the NHS does not have the resources to handle all the patients waiting for life saving operations!!!

Mandy wrote:

Probably cost a fraction of what it would cost if hosted in USA ..

And that's due to slave labour (as good as) - nice one!!

Mandy wrote:

Watch the infrastructure crumble around you (see thread in News forum about the Bridge collapse)

An ice rink fell apart in Southern Germany last year - shit happens!

Lostinthestates

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Location: Bethlehem, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject:

Mandy wrote:

Lostinthestates wrote:

You didn't answer my question what would fill the void left behind by the US - you seem very keen on the idea of the US falling apart. I think your tone is very patronizing - about the news - I guess you have been following it and so you must be aware how every candidate is distancing him/herself from Bush. I think it is laughable that you are implying that Bush might not go!! About the TOP US GOVERNMENT INSPECTOR - I am sure if you asked another TOP US GOVERNMENT INSPECTOR I am sure he would have another idea of what is happening! I think that's what you call having an opinion - doesn't mean that's how the future is going to pan out! I was voicing my opinion - so I am not very happy you attacking me and telling me I DIDN'T read the article .....

Mandy

Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject:

Regarding divorce, don't forget the Catholic view on divorce (which ties the first & fifth point together). I assume you aren't catholic.

About healthcare, you may have been too busy celebrating your low taxes in US to notice :

Mandy

Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject:

Lostinthestates wrote:

You didn't answer my question what would fill the void left behind by the US - you seem very keen on the idea of the US falling apart.

That's the neo-con propaganda for you, blame the messenger as being something akin to anti-semite (in this case, anti-US).

When someone warns you that you are about to have an accident, and try to warn you to avoid the obstacle, whilst another passenger is staying silent whilst he sees the obstacle and the imminent accident, which of the two passengers is "very keen on the idea of a crash" ?

Lostinthestates wrote:

I think your tone is very patronizing - about the news - I guess you have been following it and so you must be aware how every candidate is distancing him/herself from Bush.

Congress (and democrats) are still pursuing a pro-war, pro-Israeli policy. Even Obama said he would bomb Pakistan without permission from the Pakistani government. Almost every candidate has kissed multiple times the Israeli ass (and been handsomely rewarded)

Lostinthestates wrote:

I think it is laughable that you are implying that Bush might not go!!

He might declare a state of emergency (indeed, he has given himself the right to do so at his whim). Remember Bush's quote about
dictatorship isn't bad as long as he was the dictator.

Lostinthestates wrote:

About the TOP US GOVERNMENT INSPECTOR - I am sure if you asked another TOP US GOVERNMENT INSPECTOR I am sure he would have another idea of what is happening! I think that's what you call having an opinion - doesn't mean that's how the future is going to pan out! I was voicing my opinion - so I am not very happy you attacking me and telling me I DIDN'T read the article .....

I am saying you aren't reading it carefully .. since this was THE top US government inspector. There is NO OTHER on his level or above.
Your reply assumes there are many .. this is as clear cut as you can get from an IMPARTIAL non-partisan source.

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