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| Is Israel controlling American foreign policy? |
| yes |
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31% |
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| no |
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68% |
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| Total Votes : 16 |
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til661
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
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 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| You're mixing apples and oranges, neither of those polls say anything about israel controlling the world. But even if they did my basic point remains that there is no evidence that the tail wags the dog to use the earlier analogy. Despite your protestations of Socialism you are siding with the extreme right not the socialist left on this issue. Rather like on the global warming issue aswell. |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| til661 wrote: | | Despite your protestations of Socialism you are siding with the extreme right not the socialist left on this issue. |
Maybe there is common ground between the people who don't like the rotten "middle" (including the two "main-stream" parties which seem to have effectively merged/swapped policies).
Paraphrasing George : Labour went to New Labour, which went to no-Labour, which went to anti-Labour.
Whether we call them extreme right, or socialist left, there is a common thread in their disillusionment with the current corrupt setup.
Also, I fear labels such as "extreme right" / "socialist left" can be used to imply there is no common ground. Almost a divide and rule concept. I believe there is huge common group between disillusioned people on what you call the left and right. The biggest common ground is the way they believe their governments are not properly representing the wishes, or best interests, of their nation. Indeed, the feeling that their government has been "stolen" by "extremists" (who seem to be driven by religious, almost end-time, fever).
You will find a lot in common if you took a vote amongst what you call the "extreme right" and "socialist left" on issues such as "Proportional representation", "Governments putting interests of their own people first", "Pulling back from overseas war-mongering", "concentration on investment in the local economy", "a fairer distribution of the economic pie", "believe in freedom of the individual as highlighted by the constitution".
I have listed some of the things they have in common. Why don't you list the things they have different. At the moment, the importance of the things which they have in common seem to outweigh their differences.
p.s. It doesn't follow that racism or facism is a feature of one extreme. Indeed, the current "non-extreme" government seems to exhibit so much racism and facism that the "extreme right" / "socialist left" are becoming the moderates. |
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til661
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| My enemies enemy is not neccesarily my friend. You could say that the BNP agrees with many of those things doesn't mean they are any less sick. The Alex Jones', Infowars people (who i'm not calling racists by the way) are so far from where i and the vast majority of the left stand that it is ridiculous to even consider them. |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| til661 wrote: | | My enemies enemy is not necessarily my friend. You could say that the BNP agrees with many of those things doesn't mean they are any less sick. |
Actually, I now regard BNP policies as having been "taken over" by the Tories and New Labour. I don't think you can classify the US Constitutionalists in the same category as the BNP.
| til661 wrote: | | The Alex Jones', Infowars people (who i'm not calling racists by the way) are so far from where i and the vast majority of the left stand that it is ridiculous to even consider them. |
You may be surprised as to how much they agree with "your" views. This is why I mentioned in my last posting the areas of common ground, and I asked where do the differences lie .. i.e. trying to open a dialogue between what you call the "extreme right" / "socialist left".
I am not even sure if these "titles" are appropriate. A better title would be "dissenters". i.e. people who don't like the way the government is heading into Orwell 1984 territory. |
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Karl
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Location: Tottenham
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Karl
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Location: Tottenham
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| GG_Fan wrote: |
Actually, I now regard BNP policies as having been "taken over" by the Tories and New Labour. I don't think you can classify the US Constitutionalists in the same category as the BNP. |
Quite right New Labour is actually the new Fascist Party. The BNP is more like a working class party than New Labour
| Quote: |
I am not even sure if these "titles" are appropriate. A better title would be "dissenters". i.e. people who don't like the way the government is heading into Orwell 1984 territory.
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Right again, our society has changed so much under Blair, censorship, demonisation of various groups, wars, droughts, mrsa, ever increasing taxes, drugs, guns everywhere, yet the ministry of truth telling us about the economy is booming and were having tax cuts. No wonder people are moving to spain. |
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Karl
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Location: Tottenham
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: |
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[quote="til661"]
p.s. Don't forget that the power in Israel is focused on the top 1st class citizens (and not the other 3 classes). i.e. the power is in the very high net worth individuals / corporations / families in the 1st class.
quote]
Israel is the ultimate apartheid state. And yes power is within very few hands. But those same very few hands also control Britain, France, USA, South Africa, Brazil and Argentina. They were in control of russia too under Yeltsin. |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Karl wrote: | | Israel is the ultimate apartheid state. |
The UN human rights envoy agrees with Karl about Israel being an apartheid state :
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/181D9639-1F51-46E5-839E-292BBEFDE726.htm
UN human rights envoy accuses Israel of 'apartheid'
As does Carter
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6169107.stm
"Carter: Israeli apartheid 'worse'"
Also see http://worldpressnetwork.net/index.php/Israel
| Karl wrote: | | They were in control of russia too under Yeltsin. |
And Israel is opening their doors to "these" Russians, whilst shutting out the Palestinian home owners :
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=841464&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1
"Lieberman proposes Israeli passports for noted Russians"
The problem is, if you point out that "these" Russians tend to be Jewish, you would be called an Anti-Semite. But if you then ask why is Israel opening it's doors to them, the answer would be "Because they are Jewish and they have a right to return". Is it then just a coincidence that it was "these" Russians got mega-rich by "acquiring" their Russian's assets (e.g. oil fields) on the cheap via dubious local connections and abuse of positions of trust ?
I also wonder where they got the few millions in the first place to buy these Russian assets worth billions dollar (i.e. how we end up with a few mega-rich Russian billionaires in the West aged in their twenties and thirties).
The above report says "[Israeli] Minister Avigdor Lieberman proposes granting Israeli citizenship and passports to Russians who can make considerable contributions to Israel. " I suppose that includes any contribution which make Israel more Jewish, and less Arab or Christian .. i.e. Muslim and Christian Russians should not waste their time applying.
MEANWHILE, displaced Palestinians, irrespective of how much money they have, are banned from going back to their homes for DECADES. So it isn't just money, it is RACISM .. which is at the heart of the apartheid state.
Those people who want the Palestinians to accept "Israel's right to exist" never state the borders of Israel to which they want acceptance, never ask Israel to accept Palestine's right to exist, never mention that they want this acceptance to mean a JEWISH (i.e. apartheid) state which prevents Palestinians returning to their homes, even when UN resolutions explicitly gives the Palestinians this right.
p.s. For all the people who are denying Israel's excessive influence over the USA (which amounts to effectively the same thing as control), please tell us your views on the Israeli attack on America's USS Liberty ? Why did the US hide this monsterous crime of the Israelis (where Israel was attacking with unmarked planes [to make it look like Egyptians were attacking] knowing it was an American ship, and not an Egyptian Horse Carrier) ? Did the US benefit from having its soldiers killed and then not honouring them properly ? Or is everything sacraficable to please Israel and ensure their mega-contributions continue to the funds of politicians ? [i.e. to maintain the corruption at the heart of governments] Was this the 911 of the 1967 war, with associated cover up ? Looks like this "excessive influence" on US policy has been going on for a VERY long time. |
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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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see i think the problem here is you've already made your mind yup gg, your not evaluating anything posted, you just respond with more links and copy and pastes
but you ended on your question, and i'm going to have a look into it before replying ( cos i don't know to much about it )
so i have a question for you
if you believe what you believe, explain these two ( from the chomsky piece )
| Quote: | | Take, as one example, arms sales to China, which they bring up as undercutting US interests. But they fail to mention that when the US objected, Israel was compelled to back down: under Clinton in 2000, and again in 2005, in this case with the Washington neocon regime going out of its way to humiliate Israel. |
so that would be when the 'all powerful' sharon was pm, who you posted said "I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it" which i think if you investigate you'll find he never said ...
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| Quote: | | Take the worst crime in Israel's history, its invasion of Lebanon in 1982 with the goal of destroying the secular nationalist PLO and ending its embarrassing calls for political settlement, and imposing a client Maronite regime. The Reagan administration strongly supported the invasion through its worst atrocities, but a few months later (August), when the atrocities were becoming so severe that even NYT Beirut correspondent Thomas Friedman was complaining about them, and they were beginning to harm the US "national interest," Reagan ordered Israel to call off the invasion, then entered to complete the removal of the PLO from Lebanon, an outcome very welcome to both Israel and the US (and consistent with general US opposition to independent nationalism). The outcome was not entirely what the US-Israel wanted, but the relevant observation here is that the Reaganites supported the aggression and atrocities when that stand was conducive to the "national interest," and terminated them when it no longer was (then entering to finish the main job). |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| luke wrote: | | your not evaluating anything posted, you just respond with more links and copy and pastes? |
I don't believe you are right. I have been giving my views liberally .. with cross-references to articles. If I didn't include articles, I would (a) be repeating some of the things said (b) it is useful to see what articles are out there. It seems "both sides" of this argument are happy to include copy/paste of articles [including yourself]
| luke wrote: |
if you believe what you believe, explain these two ( from the chomsky piece )
| Quote: | | Take, as one example, arms sales to China, which they bring up as undercutting US interests. But they fail to mention that when the US objected, Israel was compelled to back down: under Clinton in 2000, and again in 2005, in this case with the Washington neocon regime going out of its way to humiliate Israel. |
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If this was anyone other than Israel, would the US have "just" stopped the sale? Note that Israeli spies stole the secrets of America's US nuclear protection, and sold them to Russias .. negating TRILLIONS in spending and endagering US national security.
Did the US retaliate, e.g. reduce or cut of aid, reduce or cut of collaboration ? No .. the "aid" from US to Israel keeps getting bigger & bigger. This is totally cosmetic .. Israeli arms exports (aided by technology transfer and research grants and orders etc. from the US) just get bigger & bigger every year ..
| luke wrote: |
so that would be when the 'all powerful' sharon
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Yes .. the Butcher Sharon. However the "media" spin it, and it is in the interest of the media's owners to keep up this pretense that Israel is the puppet, the issue is that IN MY OPINION there is a significant majority of the world who believe Israel pulls the strings.
Untill you show me proof otherwise, it is all a matter of opinnion .. yours, mine and others. |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I've added a poll so that people here can make their thoughts known. |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| faceless wrote: | | I've added a poll so that people here can make their thoughts known. |
Thanks faceless. I hope the Refuseniks who vote "yes" aren't the first to have their travel documents suspended, and shipped off to those "civilian" detention centers (or secret prisons) round the world.
| Quote: |
First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.
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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| GG_Fan wrote: | | It seems "both sides" of this argument are happy to include copy/paste of articles [including yourself] |
i've done it once in this thread i think, to which you responded with rubbish like chomskys anti american, but you didn't really address the issues raised
| GG_Fan wrote: | | If this was anyone other than Israel, would the US have "just" stopped the sale? |
what do you expcet them to do? start a war with there client state thats keeping the arab/muslim world divided? also it wasn't "just" stopped, as the article says "in this case with the Washington neocon regime going out of its way to humiliate Israel"
| GG_Fan wrote: | | Note that Israeli spies stole the secrets of America's US nuclear protection, and sold them to Russias .. negating TRILLIONS in spending and endagering US national security. |
now that is interesting! and one of the few things you haven't provided a link to ;)
| GG_Fan wrote: | | No .. the "aid" from US to Israel keeps getting bigger & bigger. This is totally cosmetic .. Israeli arms exports (aided by technology transfer and research grants and orders etc. from the US) just get bigger & bigger every year .. |
with profits going to big business, american business if i'm not mistaken, and having israel well armed works in americas favour
| GG_Fan wrote: | | Yes .. the Butcher Sharon. |
on this we agree ;)
| GG_Fan wrote: | | However the "media" spin it, and it is in the interest of the media's owners to keep up this pretense that Israel is the puppet, the issue is that IN MY OPINION there is a significant majority of the world who believe Israel pulls the strings. |
that a significant majority believe it doesn't make it true ( and where are you getting that from anyway?! ), and again you haven't addressed the issue - if the evil butcher sharon was that in control of america, why were they forced to back down when america asked?
| GG_Fan wrote: | | Untill you show me proof otherwise, it is all a matter of opinnion .. yours, mine and others. |
like wise ;)
we do agree on a lot though apart from this one thing, i think israel has massive influence, you think they have total control, we both disagree with the policies both are following and that they need to be changed, that justice must be forthcoming for the palestinians etc and that sharon is a butcher.
what might be better than going back and forth between they control or they have massive infuence is what can be done to address the situation for the better? |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| luke wrote: | | we do agree on a lot though apart from this one thing, i think israel has massive influence, you think they have total control |
Actually, I agree with you on the above. I don't think it is "total" control. What I said in an earlier posting : | Quote: | | Israel's excessive influence over the USA (which amounts to effectively the same thing as control) |
i.e. you can never have "total control" on someone, e.g. you can't tell them not to sneeze .. but if most of the time they follow orders, and a small percentage of the time a difference of opinion occurs, that is still effectively control. i.e. you can let a prisoner some freedom, but for the important decisions, you have a 3 line whip.
An anlogy is whether a head of a political party (e.g. Blair) "controls" the decisions of government. Effectively he does, even allowing for the rare rebellion.
FYI, http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=061208122947.vnyuf8tw&show_article=1
"Israel frets over Iraq report, dispatches FM to Washington"
We can see the Israeli's hard-line against Iran is winning through.
I just found this video about a debate :
http://www.scribemedia.org/2006/10/11/israel-lobby/
" The Israel Lobby: Does it Have Too Much Influence on US Foreign Policy?"
p.s. To make things better, how about strict limits on party / politician funding (i.e. state funding). That would remove the main leverage from AIPAC and the cash-for-honours scandals.
| luke wrote: | | GG_Fan wrote: | | Note that Israeli spies stole the secrets of America's US nuclear protection, and sold them to Russias .. negating TRILLIONS in spending and endagering US national security. |
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Luke you wanted a reference. There are many out these, but here's one :
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/pollard_em.htm
"Jonathan Pollard Was No Jewish Patriot"
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After years of denials, Israel finally admitted Pollard, a U.S. Navy civilian analyst, was not a "rogue agent," as it originally claimed, but a spy for Israeli intelligence.
Pollard caused enormous damage to U.S. national security. He gave Israel top-secret U.S. military intelligence and diplomatic codes; names of nearly 100 U.S. agents in the Mideast, who were then "turned" by Israel; NSA code-breaking techniques and targets; intercepts of foreign communications; and U.S. war-fighting plans for the Mideast.
According to CIA sources, Pollard provided Israeli intelligence with names of important American agents inside the former
Soviet Union and Russia who had supplied information on East Bloc weapons and war plans. How the agents' names were linked to the secrets they supplied - a major breach of basic intelligence security - remains a mystery.
Some of the enormously sensitive secrets stolen by Pollard may have been either sold, or bartered, by Israel to the Soviet Union.
A number of key CIA agents in the East Bloc were allegedly executed as a result of Pollard's spying. The KGB likely gained access to top-secret U.S. codes - either directly from Israel, or through spies in Israel's government. In short, Pollard's treachery caused one of the worst security disasters in modern U.S. history.
FBI investigators discovered Pollard was being directed to steal specific secret data by a senior administration official, known as "Mr. X." But the White House, unwilling to stir up a domestic political storm, quashed the investigation.
To my knowledge, three previous cases of high-ranking U.S. government officials caught passing top-secret information to Israel have been similarly hushed up. Two were senior defence department officials under Ronald Reagan, one a top state department official in a previous administration. None was prosecuted.
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Faceless,
A better vote question (since there is uncertainty as to whether "control" means total or effective control), might be
"The Israel Lobby: Does it Have Too Much Influence on US Foreign Policy?"
There is a video on such a debate in my last posting above. |
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