| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Is Israel controlling American foreign policy? |
| yes |
|
31% |
[ 5 ] |
| no |
|
68% |
[ 11 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 16 |
|
| Author |
Message |
Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: Does Israel control American policy, or the other way round? |
 |
|
|
|
Does Israel control American policy, or the other way round ? [or indeed, just partners in crime]
A critical issue is whether Washington only implements policies which benefits it, or sometimes implements policies Israel wants which actually hurt Washington. This test would indicate who is in control : Washington or Israel.
Another test is if the benefits are "lobsided", i.e. even if both parties benefits, if one party benefits a lot more than the other (i.e. an unfair "split" of the benefits pie), that would also indicate a measure of "control" by the party which benefits disproportionatyly more.
As an analogy, consider a gang of 2 (or 3 if you count Britain) who just raided a bank using the firearms of "A", with "A" and "B" doing all the hard and risky work, whilst the 3rd gang member "I" gives instructions from a safe distance. Then the pie is split up, say 90% "I", 9% "A", and 1% "B". Who would you say is in control ?
The discussion comes up in multiple threads, so I am posting it here to allow a focused discussion on it.
I will start the thread with a video and two articles. It would be useful for people to see these before replying.
1)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
interesting article here
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
Thanks Luke. FYI, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Noam_Chomsky
mentions criticism of Noam Chomsky with :
* "Claims that Chomsky harbors an anti-American bias"
and
* "Criticism of Chomsky's stance on proposed Israel-Palestinian conflict solutions".
i.e. he is effectively a support of Israel, and thus might not be surprising he would propose the concept that America is at fault, and not Israel (a crime shared is a crime halved).
Another article on the war being in Israel's interest, with Americans being "blinded" as to what is happening in their name and with their tax dollars and military :
http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=813
"Prince Hassan: Neocons and Israel Plan “New 100 Years of War” in the Middle East"
Prince Hassan made it clear that the idea of breaking Iraq into pieces, as is circulating in some US and Israeli circles, would be a fatal mistake. The Jordanian prince warned that a possible break-up would play into the hands of Israeli ‘extremists,’ making Israel the dominant minority in a region of minorities.”
Regarding by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, the following two articles mention them as well :
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/1005
"Zionist control over the media wanes"
and
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=4753
"Silence of the Poodles"
By Paul Findley – June 2006
Words spoken years ago by George W. Ball, a distinguished diplomat, author and champion of human rights, have vivid, new currency: “When Israel’s interests are being considered, Members of Congress act like trained poodles. They jump dutifully through hoops held by Israel’s lobby.” In the same interview, Ball said, “The lobby’s most powerful instrument of intimidation is the reckless charge of anti-Semitism.” Sadly, his words ring true today, verified by my own experiences and those of many of my colleagues in the U.S. legislature.
Ball could have added that, except for exuberant praise of Israel, the poodles remain mute as they jump through the hoops, lest they lapse into free speech and say something that will spoil their chances for re-election.
The fear of being charged with anti-Semitism outranks all other worries that bedevil politicians, and the lobby has marketed it so efficiently that a wall of silence shields the American people from awareness of the lobby’s activities and U.S. complicity in Israel’s longstanding abuse of international law and Arab human rights, violations that the rest of the world follows with dismay and anger. Fear of the anti-Semitism stain is intensified these days, because the lobby has succeeded in redefining anti-Semitism to include any criticism of Israeli behavior, an inferred threat that prompts all major media to ignore or sanitize reports of Israeli violations.
My authority for making these statements comes from having been a close student of the lobby for over 30 years, the first 22 as a member of Congress. The lobby leaders chose me as their number one target because I met unashamedly with PLO leader Yasser Arafat and later demanded the suspension of U.S. aid to Israel for its unlawful use of U.S.-donated military supplies. In 1982, when the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), the main center of Israeli lobbying in Washington, claimed credit for keeping me from election to a 12th term in the House of Representatives, I became the lobby’s prize trophy. Two years later, Sen. Charles Percy (R-IL), who was also guilty of failing to toe the AIPAC line, joined me on the trophy shelf. Our fate has tended to focus the minds of other members of Congress, discouraging them from the temptation to speak out about Israel’s misbehavior.
Israel’s U.S. lobby is peerless among the hundreds of lobbies in our nation’s capital for one main reason: it alone is armed with the ultimate persuader, an ample supply of indictments for anti-Semitism. The supply promotes automatic cooperation when legislation on behalf of Israel moves forward. It is the modern-day Sword of Damocles, a fearsome instrument that hangs over almost every head in our government. Until recently, it seemed to cow all of the nation’s prestigious scholars, except for a few hardy ones like Prof. Noam Chomsky of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Juan Cole of the University of Michigan.
“When Israel’s interests are being considered, Members of Congress act like trained poodles.”
In February, in a rare burst of academic candor, two other distinguished professors, John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt of Harvard’s Kennedy School, broke the silence with the publication of their 81-page, heavily footnoted study titled, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy.
In the study, they conclude that the flagrant, longstanding pro-Israel bias in U.S. Middle East policy has enabled Israel to tilt U.S. policy in ways that benefit Israel to the disadvantage of U.S. national interests, luring America even into costly wars and a rising tide of ill fame worldwide. They pin much of the blame on the influence of Israel’s U.S. lobby. One of their most significant conclusions: “The U.S. has a terrorism problem in good part because it is so closely allied with Israel.”
Mearsheimer and Walt quickly discovered why most of their academic colleagues behave much like the political poodles on Capitol Hill. Their study instantly became controversial, the subject of a vigorous U.S. discussion over Israel’s role in U.S. foreign policy for the first time since the Jewish state came into being in 1948. A shorter version edited by the authors was published in the respected London Review of Books because no U.S. periodical was brave enough to give it a public audience. The study provoked such strong trans-Atlantic shock waves, thanks mainly to the Internet, that the wielders of the modern Sword of Damocles have gone public with a barrage of full-throated epithets, charging Mearsheimer and Walt with “ignorant propaganda, academic garbage, anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist drivel.” The Harvard Crimson quoted Harvard Prof. Alan Dershowitz as labelling the authors “liars” and “bigots.” Two other academics, in a letter to the London Review of Books, wrote ominously: “Accusations of powerful Jews behind the scenes are part of the most dangerous traditions of modern anti-Semitism.” They overlooked the fact that the lobby also includes powerful Christians.
In the New York Daily News, a less strident critic, Harvard Prof. David Gergen, rebuked the authors by declaring that “over the course of four tours in the White House I never once saw a decision in the Oval Office to tilt U.S. foreign policy in favor of Israel at the expense of America’s interest.” An experienced politician himself, Gergen must know that such tilts would never be recorded for anyone to see, even in the privacy of the Oval Office. In the column, Gergen mistakenly credited President Ronald Reagan with stopping Israel’s 1982 bloody assault on Lebanon. To the contrary, as George W. Ball recorded in his book Error and Betrayal in Lebanon (p. 45), Israeli Prime Minister Begin was defiant, conveying his refusal in these words: “Nobody, nobody is going to bring Israel to her knees. You must have forgotten that the Jews kneel but to God.”
No matter what lies ahead, Mearsheimer and Walt have already well served the American public. Their initiative has broken through a dangerous wall of silence. Thanks to publicity arising from their study, many thousands of U.S. citizens are aware for the first time that a domestic lobby on behalf of Israel exerts a significant role in forming U.S. Middle East policy, even on decisions of war. They are also now aware that religious communities—minority elements of both Christianity and Judaism—are the main pillars of the lobby.
This knowledge maybe stir enough public curiosity for a civilized and edifying public debate to ensue. It is difficult to conceive of a topic more urgently worthy of public examination.
Paul Findley (R-IL), who served in the U.S. Congress from 1961 to 1983, is the author of the bestseller, They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel’s Lobby, available from the AET Book Club. He and Mrs. Findley reside in Jacksonville, IL, where he can be reached via e-mail at Findley1@erizon.net
www.just-international.org/Commentary/E%20News%20June%2006.htm |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nekokate
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
Interesting stuff. I haven't yet looked at that video, or the links you've provided, so I won't offer a difinitive opinion yet, but one thing that stuck in my mind was something Galloway said a few weeks back about the American/Israeli relationships:
"Tails don't wag dogs." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| nekokate wrote: | | "Tails don't wag dogs." |
He did say that. The issue is I consider Israel is the dog, and US is the tail.
Ask yourself :
Which has a greater GDP per person ?
Which has a better Budget surplus ?
Which has a better Trade surplus ?
Which manages to coerce money and supplies from the other ?
Which alters its foreign policy to suite the other ?
I suppose an analogy is the "tail" covers the a.. hole .. and we know who is stuck in the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan & Africa.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is likely to be a duck.
The problem with imperial over-reach (which is discussed in an article above) is that the decline of the US empire will leave Israel as the local, as well as possibly the global super-power. It's huge WMD stockpile already puts Israel on the global stage.
Indeed, it can be argued Israel is pushing US policy in the direction that the US pushed Russia .. i.e. into an arms race which will bankrupt the US. From Israel's point of view, even better to push US into a war with Russia & China. "By way of deception ..." and "divide and conquer"
More articles :
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/AIPACClinton.html
"HEAD OF AIPAC BOASTED ABOUT HIS CONTROL OF POLITICIANS IN 1992"
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/16/aipac/
"Inside America's powerful Israel lobby"
AIPAC, whose own literature notes that it has been described by the New York Times as "the most important organization affecting America's relationship with Israel," has been highly successful in building strong relationships with both U.S. political parties. This year's conference was attended by everyone from Vice President Dick Cheney to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama (and other 2008 presidential contenders), as well as former CIA director James Woolsey. Leaders from Congress were there, as were numerous officials from the State Department and White House.
...
When the thousands of lobbyists descended on Capitol Hill, they were greeted by nearly every U.S. senator and more than half the members of the House of Representatives -- approximately 500 meetings were held between AIPAC representatives and members of Congress on Tuesday alone. In addition to pushing for the sanctions plan, the goal was to showcase the strength of AIPAC and establish more ties for future communication and lobbying.
...
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060814/aipacs_hold
Quote:
In early March, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) held its forty-seventh annual conference in Washington. AIPAC's executive director spent twenty-seven minutes reading the "roll call" of dignitaries present at the gala dinner, which included a majority of the Senate and a quarter of the House, along with dozens of Administration officials.
As this event illustrates, it's impossible to talk about Congress's relationship to Israel without highlighting AIPAC, the American Jewish community's most important voice on the Hill.
...
AIPAC not only lobbied for the resolution; it had written it. "They [Congress] were given a resolution by AIPAC," said former Carter Administration National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski, who addressed the House Democratic Caucus on July 19. "They didn't prepare one."
AIPAC is the leading player in what is sometimes referred to as "The Israel Lobby"--a coalition that includes major Jewish groups, neoconservative intellectuals and Christian Zionists. With its impressive contacts among Hill staffers, influential grassroots supporters and deep connections to wealthy donors, AIPAC is the lobby's key emissary to Congress. But in many ways, AIPAC has become greater than just another lobby; its work has made unconditional support for Israel an accepted cost of doing business inside the halls of Congress.
http://portlandleft.blogspot.com/2007/03/can-american-jews-unplug-israel-lobby.html
Quote:
Can American Jews unplug the Israel lobby?
As Bush's unbalanced Mideast policies careen from disaster to disaster, people who don't toe the AIPAC line are beginning to speak out.
Last week, a familiar Washington ritual took place: Leading American politicians from both parties lined up at the annual AIPAC policy conference to vie with each other over who could pledge the most undying fealty to Israel. As usual, much of Congress showed up -- half of the members of the U.S. Senate and more than half of the House, including figures like Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, along with Vice President Dick Cheney.
...
But AIPAC showed its true power -- and its continuing ability to steer American Mideast policy in a disastrous direction -- when a group of conservative and pro-Israel Democrats succeeded in removing language from a military appropriations bill that would have required Bush to get congressional approval before using military force against Iran.
The pro-Israel lobby's victory on the Iran bill is almost unbelievable. Even after the nation repudiated the Iraq war decisively in the 2006 midterms, even after it has become clear that the Bush administration's Middle East policy is severely unbalanced toward Israel and has damaged America's standing in the world, Congress still cannot bring itself to stand up to the AIPAC line.
The fact that AIPAC, which is ranked as the second-most powerful lobby in the country (trailing only AARP, but ahead of the NRA) virtually dictates U.S. policy in the Mideast has long been one of those surreal facts of Washington life that politicians discuss only when they get near retirement -- if then. In 2004, Sen. Ernest "Fritz" Hollings had the bad taste to reveal this inconvenient truth when he said, "You can't have an Israel policy other than what AIPAC gives you around here." Michael Massing, who has done exemplary reporting on AIPAC for the New York Review of Books, quoted a congressional staffer as saying, "We can count on well over half the House -- 250 to 300 members -- to do reflexively whatever AIPAC wants." In unguarded moments, even top AIPAC figures have confirmed such claims. The New Yorker's Jeffrey Goldberg quoted Steven Rosen, AIPAC's former foreign-policy director who is now awaiting trial on charges of passing top-secret Pentagon information to Israel, as saying, "You see this napkin? In twenty-four hours, we could have the signatures of seventy senators on this napkin."
...
The touchiest aspect of all is the role played by pro-Israel neoconservatives in laying the groundwork for the Iraq war. Much of the media has been loath to go near this, for obvious and in some ways honorable reasons: It feels a little like "blame the Jews." But that taboo has faded as it has become clearer that "the Jews" are not the ones being blamed for helping pave the way to war, but a group of powerful neoconservatives, some but not all of them Jewish, who subscribe to the hard-right views of Israel's Likud Party. This group no more represents "the Jews" than the Shining Path represents "the Peruvians."
Logic and forthrightness has traditionally taken a back seat to timorous self-censorship when it comes to discussing these matters. But in addition to the war debate, several other watershed events have helped erode the taboo against discussing the power of the Israel lobby. The most important were the publications of John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt's "The Israel Lobby," and Jimmy Carter's "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid." The overwrought reaction to Mearsheimer and Walt's piece, ironically, only supported its thesis. Similarly, the opprobrium heaped on Carter only succeeded in making it clear how little room there is for open discussion of these issues in America.
For all these reasons, a powerful spotlight has been turned on the pro-Israel lobby. And there are signs that increasing numbers of Americans, Jews and non-Jews alike, are willing to openly question whether it is in America's national interest for AIPAC, whose positions are well to the right of those held by most American Jews, to wield such disproportionate power over America's Mideast policies.
As a group, American Jews continue to be staunchly liberal. A new poll shows that 77 percent of American Jews now think that the Iraq war was a mistake, compared with 52 percent of all Americans. (Jewish support for the war has collapsed: A poll taken a month before the war showed that 56 percent of Jews supported it, somewhat below the national average at that time.) Eighty-seven percent of Jews voted Democratic in 2006. And although data here is murkier, polls also show that most American Jews hold views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that are to the left of AIPAC's.
What all this adds up to is that for liberal or moderate American Jews who don't support Bush's war in Iraq or his "war on terror" and who are willing to look at Israel warts and all, the fact that AIPAC has anointed itself as the de facto spokesmen for American Jews is becoming more and more unacceptable. And increasing numbers of them are beginning to speak out.
... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| GG_Fan wrote: | Thanks Luke. FYI, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Noam_Chomsky
mentions criticism of Noam Chomsky with :
* "Claims that Chomsky harbors an anti-American bias"
and
* "Criticism of Chomsky's stance on proposed Israel-Palestinian conflict solutions".
i.e. he is effectively a support of Israel, and thus might not be surprising he would propose the concept that America is at fault, and not Israel (a crime shared is a crime halved). |
funny, you say he's effectively a support of israel, based on that page, which also accuses him of antisemitism  have you read any chomsky taking about the israeli occupation?
do you know chomskys proposed solution for israel/palestine? its the one the whole world, including arab and muslim states, have agreed on, but has been blocked for decades by the usual suspects
chomsky anti american?! wake up man, read his stuff, what does that even mean anyway, anti american? if you mean he's critical of the way government/media/big corporations work, then yeah
also, chomkys not proposing america is at fault, he's evaulating evidence and coming to conclusions based on that, and its not america 'the country', but the american elite, certain business and institutions etc
you seem to be ignoring, or blind to, all the benefits to american big business, and blaming it all on israel - as if american oil, arms and reconstruction businesses had nothing to gain. that somehow this all powerful israeli lobby controls all those as well ... thats getting into icke territory ;)
i think we will have to agree to disagree on this, i'm with you that israel it massively influental, to much so, but i believe ultimately, america is in control |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
Regarding who is in control, let's see what Sharon said :
Ariel Sharon is reported to have boasted about his relationship with George Bush saying: "We have the US under our control."
"I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it." Ariel Sharon to Shimon Peres, October 3rd, 2001, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. - M.R. (i.e. Michael Rivero)
"Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying "don't worry about American pressure, we the Jewish people control America."
So Sharon was able to defy US wishes (another indication he is the person in charge) :
Sharon defies US on West Bank fence
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/sharonsboast.php
"Was Sharon's boast just 'wishful thinking?' Apparently not!"
-----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/priceofyourchild.html
" WHAT IS THE PRICE FOR YOUR CHILD'S LIFE?"
There is no doubt that AIPAC exerts control over the US Government. Indeed back in 1992, the then-head of AIPAC, David Steiner, boasted that he had influence over who would be the next Secretary of State, and had already "cut a deal" with Baker for more aid to Israel. When the scandal became public, Steiner was forced to resign.
Despite this scandal, and despite the fact that the current AIPAC spy investigation has been going on for more than two years, US Representatives and Senators continued to accept money from an organization they knew was under investigation for espionage against the United States.
How does that money influence the US Government?
Let us look at what Israel wants.
**check out the list in the article. Absolutely incredible**
-----------------------------------------------------------
The issue of who controls who is also related to who control the Federal Reserve in the US. It certainly isn't the US citizens or taxpayers, or the US government. Indeed, he who controls the issuance of currency (like the Federal Reserve can do) effectively controls the country, irrespective of who is elected.
Thomas Jefferson was concise in his early warning to the American nation:
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
In the US, ever since the Federal Reserve came into being, the private banks DO control the issuance of the currency in the US.
http://www.justiceplus.org/american.htm
"In his essay, "Billions for the Bankers--Debts for the People: An indictment of the Federal Reserve System," the late Pastor Sheldon Emry examines the corruption at the core of the American monetary system."
On who has "seized control of Americas highest political office" :
http://www.unknownnews.org/070326a-LeonF.html
"The future looks very bleak - The crash of the US economy has begun. "
America has been scammed big-time over the years. The corporate wheelers and dealers, with the complicity of their bought and paid for political whores in Washington, have sold the American working man down the river, and the general welfare of the entire country as well.
Reacting to mounting criticism of the present economic status quo, the corporate crooks and their political hit men blame the miserable economic situation on their victims.
Because these same corporations own most of the mass media in America, very little if any blame at all is placed upon the multi billion dollar corporations whose decisions, based entirely on greed, have set off these disastrous events in the first place.
Coinciding with the mounting economic problems of the nation is that of a growing threat to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness by a group of unelected conspirators who have seized control of Americas highest political office. This group of traitors, with Bush crime family member and usurper of the Office of President, George Walker Bush, has ceaselessly undermined the authority of the Constitution and laws of the United States.
Since the installation of this cabal, a series of events have unfolded not seen since Hitler's burning of the Reichstag. The attack on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington DC, followed by the anthrax threat to Congress, was carefully contrived to give the Bush Cabal the support necessary to begin military operations to secure the resources of the Mideast, and to pass the PATRIOT Act and other draconian legislation, bestowing upon this illegal regime the power to spy, arrest, and torture anyone, including American citizens, they deem as enemy combatants.
With the economy failing, and the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan continuing with no end in sight, the newly-elected Congress sits on its hands, unwilling to act. Nor are they moving to remove the 9/11 conspirators and war criminals from the White House.
This is not only a bleak scenario for the American people but for the entire world as well. Emboldened by the timidity of the new Congress, the Bush cabal is moving ahead with their plans for war with Iran, which will not be long in coming.
Although I would like to end my remarks on a positive note, at this moment I do not see anything good happening in the near future. Despite the growing disenchantment and suspicion of Bush and his policies, he and his cabal are still in firm control of the Country.
Further, it is foolish to think that after Bush leaves office, the next occupants of the White House will set things straight. This is not going to happen.
The fact of the matter is that our Government is no longer in charge of matters, but operates as a rubber stamp for those parasitic entities which have infiltrated into the core of government. In reality, policy in Washington is not determined by the wants and needs of the American people, but by the whim of the wealthy and powerful elite whose seemingly inexhaustible riches and thirst for more riches supercedes everything else. These corrupt and treasonous individuals within the halls of power will stop at nothing, including war and murder, in order to attain their diabolical ends.
We should also not delude ourselves that an economic collapse will somehow quicken the removal of the cancer which is hastening the demise of our Republic. Just as they have used the threat of terrorism to cow the people, so will they use economic failure to justify a further tightening of the screws. It is going to be a long hard struggle to rid ourselves of this evil, make no mistake about it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
til661
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
" Ask yourself :
Which has a greater GDP per person ?
Which has a better Budget surplus ?
Which has a better Trade surplus ?
Which manages to coerce money and supplies from the other ?
Which alters its foreign policy to suite the other ? "
This makes no sense for many reasons. For one the last two are your opinion, second budget/trade surplus are an irrelevance. Thirdly the US has more than twice the GDP per person as Israel.
Lets look at the IMF figures for overall GDP
US: 12,455,825
Israel: 129,841
Notice the disparity, the very idea that the US is doing Israel's bidding is an absolute joke, with the sum total of no evidence to back it up. why would a $13 trillion economy be taking orders from a small nation with the economic clout of slovakia is mind boggling. As i said before the test is when the countries interests differ, see for example the Suez crisis which the US told Israel to back off and it did immediately. The rest of your 'evidence' is hearsay at best. The US must be doing Israel's bidding because Sharon said so....for god's sake that is really weak, Mr. Blair says we have a special relationship but it doesn't make it true. I can't believe i wasted my time typing this, illuminati types such as yourself never listen to anyone anyway 
P.S That Chomsky article is superb and puts it across far more eruditely and artfully than i ever could. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| til661 wrote: | | why would a $13 trillion economy be taking orders from a small nation with the economic clout of slovakia is mind boggling. |
A few possible reasons :
+Because that "small nation" has all the congressmen and politicians in its pocked, and can black-list any politician who doesn't vote for the way it wants.
+Power exercised via the Federal Reserve
+Blackmail (e.g. provides encryption, telephone and billing systems)
p.s. Don't forget that the power in Israel is focused on the top 1st class citizens (and not the other 3 classes). i.e. the power is in the very high net worth individuals / corporations / families in the 1st class.
p.p.s. Thomas Jefferson put it better than I could have. I would rather take Jefferson's warning over Chomsky article. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
til661
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
p.s. Don't forget that the power in Israel is focused on the top 1st class citizens (and not the other 3 classes). i.e. the power is in the very high net worth individuals / corporations / families in the 1st class.
and your point? the same thing happens in every country in the world
The others are hearsay with no evidence again |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| til661 wrote: | p.s. Don't forget that the power in Israel is focused on the top 1st class citizens (and not the other 3 classes). i.e. the power is in the very high net worth individuals / corporations / families in the 1st class.
and your point? the same thing happens in every country in the world
|
The point being is that the "1st class" citizens running Israel exercise undue power round the world.
| til661 wrote: | | The others are hearsay with no evidence again |
Hearsay can be admitted in a court of law under certain circumstances. It is more credible than the "admissions" extracted under torture which we are told to believe.
In any case, neither the ownership of the Fed, nor Jefferson's statement, is hearsay, any more than a speech by Bush is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
til661
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
Well at least you admit you've got nothing to back up your assertions with, it's always better to be honest.
Jeffersons statement has got nothing to do with Israel has it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| til661 wrote: | | Jeffersons statement has got nothing to do with Israel has it. |
Jefferson was warning about not giving up the power to issue currency. A power subsequently issued to the Federal Reserve.
Who owns the Federal Reserve ?
Could it be non-Americans by any chance? People who are pro-Israel?
| til661 wrote: | | illuminati types such as yourself never listen to anyone anyway |
I am surprised you didn't also call me a conspiracy theorist, anti-semite, holocaust denier, 9-11 denier, climate warming denier at the same time, i.e. I must be a looney to put forward this debate where a huge proportion of the world disagree with your viewpoint.
Above is NOT about the "illuminati" .. it is about the extreme form of capitalism and corruption running this world. Which is why I support a fairer socialist system. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
til661
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
Umm no a huge proportion don't believe any of these things that's why you have to dig up sources fromthe extreme right of the US. Alex Jones et al. I particularly liked you source earlier sheldon emry:
Sheldon Emry was truly a pastor who fit the prophet Jeremiah's description.Through his teachings many Christian Americans came to realize just how meaningful world history really was. Because of his ability they learned how to apply the Bible, God's Law, to their everyday lives and how it should be applied to American government. It was through this special God-given insight that Pastor Emry was able to show Americans the importance of beinga Christian and a Patriot simultaneously. These Americans were able to understand all these things because God Almighty used Pastor Emry in the particular ministry He had called him to, to help open their blinded eyes to their true identity as God's chosen people.
During his remarkable ministry, which spanned 18 years, Pastor Emry spoke about God's Law to everyone from heads of state to small children.In fact, his ministry was the inspiration for a whole new generation of Christian Patriotic pastors from all parts of the nation.
According to God's plan, Pastor Emry passed away on June 6, 1985. It is our prayer, that his word continue, that this generation and all to come, will seek Jesus Christ and His Kingdom
http://www.churchoftrueisrael.com/emry/
There are many things wrong with the current systems of the US and UK but nonsense peddled by these people only seeks to muddy the waters not change them for the better. Hence why the left don't go around quoting such people |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| til661 wrote: | | Umm no a huge proportion don't believe any of these things |
I would love to see polls which just focus on this issue. If you know any, please do let us have the results. In the meanwhile, here are some polls which shows the world's majority doesn't side with Israel. You don't get this amount of animosity (or fear) without having global military and economic power (even if exercised through the US).
http://www.counterpunch.org/cook02282004.html
"Israel, world's biggest threat to world peace!" blared the headlines in Europe when the "Eurobarometer" poll, undertaken by the European Commission, reported more than 59% of EU citizens see Israel as a threat to world peace (Brussels: AFP-Reuter-Agencies, Nov. 2003). The United States, in the company of Iran and North Korea, came in second at 53%. Fifteen countries participated in the poll. "
------------------
http://www.americans-world.org/digest/regional_issues/IsraelPalestinians/un_role.cfm
During Israel's April 2002 offensive, an international controversy arose over a proposed UN fact-finding mission to Jenin in the West Bank. The mission's purpose was to establish the facts about what had happened in the struggle between the IDF and Palestinian militants in Jenin, and to evaluate rumors and reports of war crimes against civilians. Originally a suggestion of the Israeli Foreign Minister, the UN fact-finding mission was backed by the United States. After a few days, the Israeli government reversed course and refused cooperation with the fact-finding mission.
In PIPA's poll in the first week of May, an overwhelming majority of 76% said that Israel should allow the UN to investigate Israel's military operation in Jenin. Just 15% were opposed. (Support was equally high when a half-sample was told that Israel has not allowed the UN team to conduct the investigation.) [4]
On the same topic, over April 29-May 1, CNN/USA Today asked:
As you may know, the United Nations authorized sending investigators into the Palestinian refugee camp where much of Israel's recent military action took place. Israel refused the United Nations team entry into the camp until Israel's concerns were addressed. Which side do you tend to agree with more in this situation -- Israel or the United Nations?
A strong majority-62%--said they agreed more with the UN. A little over a quarter (28%) agreed more with Israel. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Couchtripper - 2005-2015
|
