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nekokate
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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 Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | | nekokate wrote: | | What do you make of the clearwisdom.net website, then? Specifically this page. |
Reminds me of the Kuwaiti princess in 1990 pretending to be a nurse who said Iraqi soldiers threw Kuwait babies from incubators in order to steal the incubators.
A story repeated by Britain & US .. which later is proven to be false. Britain & US were behind that false story .. and also behind the Tibetans. Draw the line. |
Why do you always bring up the story about the Kuwaitis and the incubators? This is seriously about the fourth time you've replied to someone with that counter-point (certainly the second you've done it with me), and the fourth time it has had no relevence.
I hope it strikes everyone else reading this forum as clearly as it strikes me that the only defense you ever offer in a debate is some kind of anecdotal comparison that is rarely pertinent. I challenge people to look back through the forum and find a single occasion where Mandy has debated on a subject without bringing something else up in an attempt to dilute the original significance. We shouldn't care about the oppression of the Tibetans because of our own government's oppression, we shouldn't care about human rights in Iran because of our own human rights record, we shouldn't care about Palestinians been beaten in the streets by Hamas militants because of the greater crimes of Israel... You have a very selective humanity. |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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What's wrong with a bit of relative comparisons ? What's wrong with putting condemnation of one element of the world in the context of breaches by others in the same area ?
It is the selective double standards of the West which is most riling. For example. how other countries HAVE to obey UN resolutions unconditionally .. but can't bring into their defence that Israel doesn't obey them.
Also how "Human Rights" is used as a phrase to break countries (including the USSR) when it suites the West, but the West loses interest in Human Rights once the government is "on-side". Why shouldn't countries use relativism as a defence ? |
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faceless
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Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| What's wrong with comparing apples and oranges? |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| faceless wrote: | | What's wrong with comparing apples and oranges? |
I don't agree that the majority of my comparisons aren't comparable. I believe that I generally compare apples with apples. |
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nekokate
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | | What's wrong with a bit of relative comparisons ? What's wrong with putting condemnation of one element of the world in the context of breaches by others in the same area ? |
There's nothing wrong with comparison on the level you've just described, but you go one step further, do you not? You use comparison as a weapon of apology. You want us to stop talking about the situation in Tibet and you want to deny there is even a problem.
| Mandy wrote: | It is the selective double standards of the West which is most riling. For example. how other countries HAVE to obey UN resolutions unconditionally .. but can't bring into their defence that Israel doesn't obey them.
Also how "Human Rights" is used as a phrase to break countries (including the USSR) when it suites the West, but the West loses interest in Human Rights once the government is "on-side". Why shouldn't countries use relativism as a defence ? |
This is the fundamental difference in our outlooks that you've neatly distilled in those two paragraphs. You believe that non-Western countries who commit crimes should be forgiven for those crimes because Western countries commit crimes also. I believe that no country should commit crimes, and every single one that does should be highlighted.
I comdemn the United States administration just as strongly as you do, but I don't allow it to make me an apologist for the countries the West has a sick interest in exploiting. |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Kate, maybe the difference is that my level of proof is quite high when it comes to alleged crimes by people whose assets or countries the West covet.
I certainly do NOT want ANYONE's crimes forgiven, but justice should be dispensed equally. |
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faceless
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Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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and if that justice happens to be meted out by a baton wielding copper, who happens to be of Hamas or the Chinese government then that's ok?
This is how you are coming across Mandy and it really does you no favours at all. |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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No it is NOT ok. I am saying we need to examine the "evidence" we are being presented carefully to make sure it is not propaganda or a false flag operation.
p.s. Strange how you can say I am OK with violence when I just said
"I certainly do NOT want ANYONE's crimes forgiven, but justice should be dispensed equally." |
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faceless
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Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| The evidence in that 'Inside Hamas' documentary was fairly clear - cops rampaging about hitting people who were not offering any kind of threat or even resistance - but you defended them by suggesting that they were under pressure. |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| faceless wrote: | | The evidence in that 'Inside Hamas' documentary was fairly clear - cops rampaging about hitting people who were not offering any kind of threat or even resistance - but you defended them by suggesting that they were under pressure. |
We don't know who those "cops" were. We don't know if they were rogue elements or using sanctioned violence. We don't know if they were later punished for their crimes.
But we seem to be all ready to say Hamas is bad because of that video.
If Hamas was so bad for the Palestinian people, then how come their popularity ROSE since their previous election victory ?
p.s. I didn't see them using Tasers .. or would that have been OK ? If so, then you should campaign to get boxes of Tasers sent over there. Maybe that would make them more civil. |
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nekokate
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | | Kate, maybe the difference is that my level of proof is quite high when it comes to alleged crimes by people whose assets or countries the West covet. |
Can you explain that further? I'm not trying to mess you around, I'm genuinely unclear what you mean by that. |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| nekokate wrote: | | Mandy wrote: | | Kate, maybe the difference is that my level of proof is quite high when it comes to alleged crimes by people whose assets or countries the West covet. |
Can you explain that further? I'm not trying to mess you around, I'm genuinely unclear what you mean by that. |
I mean that when I hear reports against country or group "X" where this country or group is being lined up to be attacked by the West, then I am likely to look deeply into who the person making the allegation is (or providing the proof) to see if they might be twisting or making up "the facts". |
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nekokate
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | | faceless wrote: | | The evidence in that 'Inside Hamas' documentary was fairly clear - cops rampaging about hitting people who were not offering any kind of threat or even resistance - but you defended them by suggesting that they were under pressure. |
We don't know who those "cops" were. We don't know if they were rogue elements or using sanctioned violence. We don't know if they were later punished for their crimes.
But we seem to be all ready to say Hamas is bad because of that video. |
Sorry for the double post, but I have to respond to this. I don't, and never would say "Hamas is bad". I believe that Hamas is the rightfully elected government of Palestine, just like you do and just like George Galloway does.
In the thread in which we were discussing the Inside Hamas documentary, all my denounciations were aimed at those specific footsoldiers, who I said I believed were indeed a rogue faction that was out of control and directly disobeying both the covenant of Hamas and the leaders of the movement. I can't speak for Faceless, but I was led to believe he also believes that, rather than "Hamas are bad".
You're putting words in people's mouths again. |
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faceless
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Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | | faceless wrote: | | The evidence in that 'Inside Hamas' documentary was fairly clear - cops rampaging about hitting people who were not offering any kind of threat or even resistance - but you defended them by suggesting that they were under pressure. |
We don't know who those "cops" were. We don't know if they were rogue elements or using sanctioned violence. We don't know if they were later punished for their crimes.
But we seem to be all ready to say Hamas is bad because of that video.
If Hamas was so bad for the Palestinian people, then how come their popularity ROSE since their previous election victory ?
p.s. I didn't see them using Tasers .. or would that have been OK ? If so, then you should campaign to get boxes of Tasers sent over there. Maybe that would make them more civil. |
So, you will flatly ignore the evidence in front of you if you don't like the implication of it. Fair enough.
I didn't say Hamas were bad. I said that if they were unable to control things in a civilised way (being a militia) that they should give that power to those who could. You seem to be trying to tar me with the same brush as those who blindly believe what they're told in the general media, which is pretty poor. I'm speaking out for those who got the cuts and bruises. Bollocks to any government anywhere which does that to its own people. |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| nekokate wrote: | Sorry for the double post, but I have to respond to this. I don't, and never would say "Hamas is bad". I believe that Hamas is the rightfully elected government of Palestine, just like you do and just like George Galloway does.
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I couldn't let it go by either! |
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