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faceless
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Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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 Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say the major difference is that WWII was honourable while every other war since then that has been little more than attempts to force other governments to toe the American line. The fact that Bush's grandfather was a major fundraiser for the Nazis is worth noting of course...
There are dozens of other conflicts with direct and indirect CIA involvement, including many attempts to destabilise legal governments. Including, perhaps most importantly at the moment, Iran. There is of course much more diplomatic pressure placed on smaller countries to obey trade deals, which are tantamount to sanctions in some cases.
These are some of the reasons why modern soldiers (of every 'civilised' government), with all the technology and information available to them at their fingertips, don't get the same level of respect at least from me. I treat them as intelligent human beings who have made the choice to be killers, or facilitators of killers. I can't and won't respect that. |
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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Skylace wrote: | I stand by each word you just said Spurs. It's so easy to point and spit still at the soldiers who fought and died or were left behind (some by choice) during the Vietnam War. It's also very easy to pass judgments on it.
Like I stated before, McCain served his country in peace time as well. Just like my father did. My father also served in the Vietnam War he was also in Cambodia. Did he believe in those wars? No. Did he suffer from what happened over there. Yes. My father was close to both American, Vietnamese and other countries soldiers. He lost friends on both sides. I still remember him telling me that the only true enemy is the war itself. My father also went on to help many people for many years after the war was over. To judge him only by his war time military career would be unfair and unjust.
McCain made a commitment to his country and he followed through with it. There is something to be said for that. |
i just don't understand that point of view. kissinger said 'soldiers are nothing but dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy' and to me, without those pawns, there is no invasion of other peoples countries. i mean, following your thinking, the german people should be ok with what their soldiers did in world war 2, because they were told to - because they 'made a commitment to their country and followed through with it' - well they shouldn't be ok with it. einstein said something about the pioneers of a warless world are the youth who refuse military service and i agree with that. just because some leader tells you to take part in an immoral war doesn't make it any less immoral. i disagree with the leaders asking people to take part, and i disagree with those taking part. |
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Skylace
Admin
Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| luke wrote: | | Skylace wrote: | I stand by each word you just said Spurs. It's so easy to point and spit still at the soldiers who fought and died or were left behind (some by choice) during the Vietnam War. It's also very easy to pass judgments on it.
Like I stated before, McCain served his country in peace time as well. Just like my father did. My father also served in the Vietnam War he was also in Cambodia. Did he believe in those wars? No. Did he suffer from what happened over there. Yes. My father was close to both American, Vietnamese and other countries soldiers. He lost friends on both sides. I still remember him telling me that the only true enemy is the war itself. My father also went on to help many people for many years after the war was over. To judge him only by his war time military career would be unfair and unjust.
McCain made a commitment to his country and he followed through with it. There is something to be said for that. |
i just don't understand that point of view. kissinger said 'soldiers are nothing but dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy' and to me, without those pawns, there is no invasion of other peoples countries. i mean, following your thinking, the german people should be ok with what their soldiers did in world war 2, because they were told to - because they 'made a commitment to their country and followed through with it' - well they shouldn't be ok with it. einstein said something about the pioneers of a warless world are the youth who refuse military service and i agree with that. just because some leader tells you to take part in an immoral war doesn't make it any less immoral. i disagree with the leaders asking people to take part, and i disagree with those taking part. |
I don't understand yours either believe me. I grew up in a military home, I know what military life is like, and it's so easy for others to make quotes and say what they "know" about it.
Hell, I'm a a teacher and have had to constantly fight against "Those who can't teach". It's so easy for people to "know" what it means to be a teacher and what I am like because I am a teacher.
If you want to bring up the argument of Nazi's (which everyone always does when they talk about war because playing the Nazi card is the easiest way to go) I can also point out that there were people in the war then who didn't want to help but were either already members or even forced. Like my Jewish Grandfather who actually worked on the airplanes during WWII. Sadly, he died in a concentration camp. Or I could hand down the stories from my mother told to her by her mother and Oma about they had to defend themselves as well. My Great Oma remembered them laughing at Hitler when he started because of his "stupid farmboy accent". Just because you were a soldier in the Nazi army didn't mean you were a Nazi. Then you can also look at the psychological studies done in the 40s and 50s about how most people will just follow orders, regardless of military training.
I don't expect anyone to understand my point of view when it comes to this, unless they grew up the way I did, with the inside to military life that I had. And if you don't, I honestly don't care. I find people who judge with one brush when it comes to the military or any profession ill informed and as closed minded. People in the military, regardless of what others want to say are just people. They have strengths and weaknesses, fears and dreams, moments of triumph and regrets.
That is all I have to say on this subject. As for me it hits too close to home and I will not discuss it further. |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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The important difference is that some people had no choice to go to war - today's soldiers do.
My dad got shot in the head for this country when he was about 18 - fighting the scourge of popular communism in Malay. To what result for Britain? A better profit for the share dealers? Bollocks to that. |
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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Skylace wrote: | | I don't understand yours either believe me. I grew up in a military home, I know what military life is like, and it's so easy for others to make quotes and say what they "know" about it. |
i never said i know about it, i'm just saying it as i see it. i wasn't brought up in a military home, but i've two uncles who were in the forces and we've had these same disagreements  anyway, i'm sorry if i offended you, you know i have a lot of respect for you, so we'll leave it at that |
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Marcella-FL
Don't make me pull this van over!!!
Joined: 01 May 2006
Location: KMC, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| luke wrote: | | i didn't mean to start an argument or anything, |
THAT is complete and utter bullshit.
Back to the topic of his adopted daughter... He actually DID have her with him on the campaign trail in 2000. He won New Hampshire and Karl Rove came up with the ingenious idea to have a phone poll place in South Carolina ... the question? Would you still vote for McCain if you knew he had a illegitimate black child? Surprise surprise he lost South Carolina and his campaign never recovered. Instead of putting a 9 year old girl through that shit-storm he and his wife kept her protected. Why he ever stood in the same room with Gearge W Bush without spitting on him is beyond me.
What other questions do you have Luke?
For those of you interested in finding more info about the candidates on various issues check out this site:
www.votesmart.org |
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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Marcella-FL wrote: | | THAT is complete and utter bullshit. |
no, i thought people would agree with me that being told to commit immoral acts by leaders doesn't legitimise those actions or make them any better - i really didn't think there would be any disagreement that bombing civilians in a country that hasn't attacked anyone was wrong |
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Marcella-FL
Don't make me pull this van over!!!
Joined: 01 May 2006
Location: KMC, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| luke wrote: | | Marcella-FL wrote: | | THAT is complete and utter bullshit. |
no, i thought people would agree with me that being told to commit immoral acts by leaders doesn't legitimise those actions or make them any better - i really didn't think there would be any disagreement that bombing civilians in a country that hasn't attacked anyone was wrong |
Are you trying to say the Viet cong never attacked anyone? What history are you reading? The Viet Cong had suicide bombers who took out civilians. They wiped out plenty of villages of civilians too.
When McCain was shot down he was flying an A-4. This plane is a low level ground attack aircraft. Used for specific targets. Not like a b-52 that carpet bombs. The likehood of the mission targetting a "civilian" target is slim to none. It was more than likely a fuel depot or other military target.
Not saying I support McCain ... I don't. Just trying to illuminate. |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| What did any of that have to do with American security though? It was about money and all those people died for nothing but the arrogance and greed - of the French originally, and Lyndon Johnson and his neocon cohorts later... they all profitted massively from it through shares in arms manufacturers, just as Bush and his cronies do today from Iraq. |
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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| Marcella-FL wrote: | | Are you trying to say the Viet cong never attacked anyone? What history are you reading? The Viet Cong had suicide bombers who took out civilians. They wiped out plenty of villages of civilians too. |
no, and i never said that?! but why do you see it as ok for the americans to do it and not for the vietcong? to me, both of them killing civilians is wrong, but you seem to be saying for the americans to do it is somehow ok? you and others don't seem to apply the same standards to the actions of others as you do yourselves.
do you think the vietcong killed anywhere near the millions of civilians the americans did?
| Marcella-FL wrote: | | When McCain was shot down he was flying an A-4. This plane is a low level ground attack aircraft. Used for specific targets. Not like a b-52 that carpet bombs. The likehood of the mission targetting a "civilian" target is slim to none. It was more than likely a fuel depot or other military target. |
now thats complete and utter bollocks - even now with the advances in technology the american air war in afghanistan is wiping out civilians left right and center, like the 90 civilians the other week ( 60 of them children ) and the 70 civilians killed the other day. please tell me what amazing technology they had back then that they don't have now that prevented civilians from being killed? a minimum of 500 civilians have been killed in afghanistan as a result of air strikes at so called 'specific' targets this year. thats not a surprise when 272 tonnes of bombs have been dropped by the americans in just june and july of this year – thats more than the whole of 2006!
was agent orange used for 'specific targets' as well?
slim to none?! it would be laughable if it wasn't for the trail of dead bodies your country has left spread around the globe. like howard zinn, another ex vietnam vet said, 'there is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people' ... that you or anyone try to defend it baffles me |
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Marcella-FL
Don't make me pull this van over!!!
Joined: 01 May 2006
Location: KMC, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:03 am Post subject: |
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A) I didn't say it was ok for oneand not the other. I was clarifying your statement of "civilians in a country that hasn't attacked anyone"
B) I was referring to the mission that got him shot down and captured. NOT the offensive in general. I never said civilians weren't killed. I said the possibility of him targeting a civilian site was unlikely due to the plane being a ground attack aircraft.
C) BTW - I never said I was defending the american actions during the vietnam war. You wouldn't know this since you really know nothing about me but I am anti-war. I think they all suck but that doesn't mean I can't examine the facts objectively.
Knowledge is power.
Off to watch the McCain speech ... ta all! |
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Aja
Reggae Ambassador
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Location: Lost Londoner ..Nr Philly. PA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: |
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Erm I am starting work at the weekend in Obama headquarters in my area .....is there anything U would all like me to say whilst on phone  |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: |
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I've just turned over to watch his speech and within 5 minutes he's mentioned 9/11.
These people make me sick chanting USA aggressively, like they are the only representatives of it. Thank fuck they're not. |
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luke
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Location: by the sea
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Marcella-FL wrote: | | A) I didn't say it was ok for oneand not the other. I was clarifying your statement of "civilians in a country that hasn't attacked anyone" |
my mistake, i meant anyone american
| Marcella-FL wrote: | | B) I was referring to the mission that got him shot down and captured. NOT the offensive in general. I never said civilians weren't killed. I said the possibility of him targeting a civilian site was unlikely due to the plane being a ground attack aircraft. |
but the reality is that civilians are highly likely to be killed in such attacks, especially in such a 'heavily populated' area. that the intended target wasn't civilian but that by the very nature of the attack civilian casualties were highly likely doesn't make it any better. chomsky sums up this kinda thinking 'when i walk down the street, if i stop to think about it i know i'll probably kill lots of ants, but i don't intend to kill them, because in my mind they do not even rise to the level where it matters.' to the planners of those and the continuing 'targeted strikes' the fact that civilians could be killed doesn't even enter their thinking.
| Marcella-FL wrote: | | C) BTW - I never said I was defending the american actions during the vietnam war. You wouldn't know this since you really know nothing about me but I am anti-war. I think they all suck but that doesn't mean I can't examine the facts objectively. |
well if you're agreeing with me that the war was wrong, why are we arguing?  i mean we can get into little details of this and that, but the simple fact is america shouldn't have been there in the first place. welcome to the anti war movement  |
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Marcella-FL
Don't make me pull this van over!!!
Joined: 01 May 2006
Location: KMC, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| Hey face - are you getting to see all the protesters? I think there have been at least 3 or 4 ... |
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