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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| faceless wrote: | | Name me a good government that attacks its people on the streets when they are clearly offering no threat? |
We don't know the context of the attack. We don't know who those men were, and even if they were Hamas, or a renegade group, or even Fatah.
These are all jailed inmates who have been brutalised for decades by the Israelis and starved to death by most of the world.
Assuming it was Hamas, are we expecting them to hand out sweets to Fatah protesters ? Fatah would have likely shot them if the positions were reversed.
p.s. About your question, let me ask back : "Name me a good government ?" |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that the journalist who made the programme was reporting fairly on what he saw. I hope I'm mistaken though.
My point about governments was that they are all corrupt, and we should not see Hamas as any different. Especially not when they're hanging from pickup trucks like a bunch of Robert Mugabe's henchmen. |
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nekokate
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | | nekokate wrote: | | ... there was a lot of latent anti-Semitism in there (people shouting "You're worse than a Jew", etc.) |
I note one clip IN ARABIC with the above words in a sub-title.
Is that what you mean ?
I hate to be pedantic, but as we saw with "wiping Israel off the map", translations can be manipulated.
She could have been shouting "You're worse than the Israelis" |
You don't hate to be pedantic, you love it. The word Yahud (Arabic for Jew) was clearly audible in the footage.
The Achilles heel you seem to often show is a blindspot for the truth if it doesn't match your agenda. For instance, to point out anti-Semitism when it occurs is not to side with Israel, it is just to be transparent. We don't need to disguise Muslim prejudice in order to heighten Jewish prejudice when it comes to Israel/Palestine: The facts speak for themselves and the odds are already stacked vastly in our favour.
Clearly the documentary showed instances of trouble, instances of violence, instances of bigotry, so why try and bury that with pedantry? I could be wrong, but I suspect that if the footage was reversed and showed IDF hitting Palestinians with sticks, then to Hell with researching the exact context in which the events occured, it would be all over SpideredNews as absolute, unimpeachable proof of yet more Israeli violence.
I'm different. I don't believe in spin. I stand firmy alongside the Palestinians and, if I were important enough, I'd be prepared to stand infront of them, but I call a spade a spade, too. Truth is extremely important, even when it doesn't suit you.
| Mandy wrote: | | Is it anti-Semitism to call Israel as the "Jewish State" ? |
I never suggested that. Don't try the straw-man thing with me; I've got too much time on my hands for it to slip by.
I'm talking about the quote "Shame on you! You're worse than the Jews!", and the disgusted reply "Don't say that! Don't call us Jews!". You may well be happy to disregard that, but if you care to look at the flip-side of this concept, how comfortable would you be with the statement "You're worse than the Muslims"? Would that be... I dunno... a bit racist? |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| It would be racist .. and that is why a lot of honourable Jewish leaders and groups round the world distance themselves from Israel - so as not to be tarnished by guilt by association. |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| They are a militia, and worthy for defence, but what point is there in that defence if the people are kicked in the head either way? |
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major.tom
Macho Business Donkey Wrestler
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| faceless wrote: | | Name me a good government that attacks its people on the streets when they are clearly offering no threat? |
Even "good" western governments, or rather, their security forces, deal violently with protest (even purely non-violent protest as in the case of Brian Haw). Perhaps it is the nature of "authority" to move towards authoritarianism.
This program may not have been without bias. But it was extremely interesting for the nuanced views it did show; views almost entirely absent in mainstream media. For example, the security wing of Hamas and other Palestinian factions not not paying attention to Hamas' political leaders. Or the father of the boy killed by an Israeli missile saying it's criminal to attack a superpower with primitive weapons (by which he seemed to mean a crime against Palestinians).
As administrators, I'm sad to say, it appears Hamas is failing -- but the deck was stacked against them from the start. |
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Mandy
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| major.tom wrote: | | As administrators, I'm sad to say, it appears Hamas is failing -- but the deck was stacked against them from the start. |
The cause of the failure would be the stacking of the deck (i.e. externally imposed isolation).
Though one would have to also define success, e.g. would signing a one-sided "peace" agreement which gave up the right of return, with an imposed peace, be a success? Ask the diaspora, e.g. in Lebanon camps, if they would agree this definition of success.
I could add that as administrators, Bush & Blair/Brown are total failures, and they had full control on the levers of power, and backed by trillions of assets. |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| So Mandy, it's ok for cops to batter the public if they are under pressure? If you're ever at a demonstration and it turns ugly, remember what you've said here. |
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major.tom
Macho Business Donkey Wrestler
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandy wrote: | | The cause of the failure would be the stacking of the deck (i.e. externally imposed isolation). |
Mostly, yes. But the world is not black and white. The individual members of the political and security wings of Hamas (and other factions) bear responsibility for their own actions. If those actions amount to crimes or injustices against a victimized population, that can't be ignored.
| Quote: | | Though one would have to also define success, e.g. would signing a one-sided "peace" agreement which gave up the right of return, with an imposed peace, be a success? |
I hope you know by now this is not how I'd define success. Success would look like steadfast defence of the dignity and rights of Palestinians, including those whose opinions and tactics differ.
| Quote: | | I could add that as administrators, Bush & Blair/Brown are total failures, and they had full control on the levers of power, and backed by trillions of assets. |
No arguments there. |
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Salim201
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| faceless wrote: | | The video clearly shows Hamas thugs battering people in the street, if that's what you think is Israeli propaganda then that's your choice. What I saw was the majority of average people wanting their land back and to be able to live a peaceful life. Hamas are clearly incapable of politics without a weapon, so bollocks to them and power to the people. |
Let us be clear, your looking at this from a very western liberal viewpoint, which hinders your understanding. Hamas are a party operating in a state of violent occupation, you seem to assess thier actions with the presumption that displacement, terrorism, and expropriation are normal circumstances. What hamas essentially did was give a renewed sense of purpose to Palestinians who are tired of the corrupt incompetence of Fatah. Hamas basically promulgated immediately the prominance of Palestinian rights above all else, they won't recognise Israel and why should they, compromise has yeilded nothing. They blew up the Rafah-Egypt crossing in an act of defiance that gained little recognition of the significance it deserved, palestinians were being buried alive for making a democractic choice. Try to depart from your liberal almost pacifist haven to understand things in a more realist way. If I were palestinian I presume I'd probably be a member of Hamas and you would have no right to condemn me without knowing my situation. |
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Salim201
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| just as a side note, i do sympathise with the Palestinians as their plight resonates slightly more than others because as an Algerian both my grandparents fought in the FLN, and as a liberation movement they did some pretty nasty things in the pursuit for liberation, it just doesn't hold any moral value to condemn them from an armchair without seeming to understand the deeper aspects |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Salim201 wrote: | | faceless wrote: | | The video clearly shows Hamas thugs battering people in the street, if that's what you think is Israeli propaganda then that's your choice. What I saw was the majority of average people wanting their land back and to be able to live a peaceful life. Hamas are clearly incapable of politics without a weapon, so bollocks to them and power to the people. |
Let us be clear, your looking at this from a very western liberal viewpoint, which hinders your understanding. Hamas are a party operating in a state of violent occupation, you seem to assess thier actions with the presumption that displacement, terrorism, and expropriation are normal circumstances. What hamas essentially did was give a renewed sense of purpose to Palestinians who are tired of the corrupt incompetence of Fatah. Hamas basically promulgated immediately the prominance of Palestinian rights above all else, they won't recognise Israel and why should they, compromise has yeilded nothing. They blew up the Rafah-Egypt crossing in an act of defiance that gained little recognition of the significance it deserved, palestinians were being buried alive for making a democractic choice. Try to depart from your liberal almost pacifist haven to understand things in a more realist way. If I were palestinian I presume I'd probably be a member of Hamas and you would have no right to condemn me without knowing my situation. |
Don't patronise me you bloody arse. You don't have a clue about my family history in regards to responding to oppressive invasionary forces, so the next time you feel like being holier than thou - do us all a favour and bite your fucking tongue.
and another thing - if you want to promote membership of 'terrorist organisations', do it elsewhere. That is a crime, ok? |
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nekokate
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| It's also technically not "Hamas" that were beating people in the streets, it was some Hamas footsoldiers who had got out of control with power and weren't even paying attention to the people at the top. The scenes in the documentary were vicious and despicable, but people can't truthfully say it reflects the true Covenant of Hamas, in which the battering of your own people is probably not a high priority. It's individuals that deserve condemnation here. |
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faceless
admin
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I've no doubt that what has happened is a complete break-down in their system, brought about by the sanctions. In which case they should put their hands up and allow others to take control. I'm concerned about the people, not about the political elite or their paid thugs. |
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Salim201
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| i didn't mean to spark off a "you don't me, you don't know what I been through" speech, it was quite a simple point I was tryna get across. you can go around calling liberation movements terrorist organisations if you want i don't think it achieves anything |
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