Ethical debate

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Couchtripper Forum Index -> News mash
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Skylace
Admin


Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:55 pm    Post subject: Ethical debate Reply with quote

When Emilio Gonzales lies in his mother's arms, sometimes he'll make a facial expression that his mother says is a smile.

But the nurse who's standing right next to her thinks he's grimacing in pain.

Which one it is -- an expression of happiness or of suffering -- is a crucial point in an ethical debate that has pitted the mother of a dying child against a children's hospital, and medical ethicists against each other.

Emilio is 17 months old and has a rare genetic disorder that's ravaging his central nervous system. He cannot see, speak, or eat. A ventilator breathes for him in the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit at Austin Children's Hospital, where he's been since December. Without the ventilator, Emilio would die within hours.

The hospital contends that keeping Emilio alive on a ventilator is painful for the toddler and useless against his illness -- Leigh's disease, a rare degenerative disorder that has no cure.

Under Texas law, Children's has the right to withdraw life support if medical experts deem it medically inappropriate.

Emilio's mother, Catarina Gonzales, on the other hand, is fighting to keep her son on the ventilator, allowing him to die "naturally, the way God intended."

The two sides have been in and out of courts, with the next hearing scheduled for May 8.

The case, and the Texas law, have divided medical ethicists. Art Caplan, an ethicist at the University of Pennsylvania, supports the Texas law giving the hospital the right to make life or death decisions even if the family disagrees. "There are occasions when family members just don't get it right," he said. "No parent should have the right to cause suffering to a kid in a futile situation."

But Dr. Lainie Ross, a pediatrician and medical ethicist at the University of Chicago, says she thinks Emilio's mother, not the doctors, should be able to decide whether Emilio's life is worth living. "Who am I to judge what's a good quality of life?" she said. "If this were my kid, I'd have pulled the ventilator months ago, but this isn't my kid."

The law, signed in 1999 by then-Gov. George W. Bush, gives Texas hospitals the authority to stop treatment if doctors say the treatment is "inappropriate" -- even if the family wants the medical care to continue. The statute was inspired by a growing debate in medical and legal communities over when to declare medical treatment futile.

Dr. Ross says that under the law, some dozen times hospitals have pulled the plug against the family's wishes. She says more often than not, the law is used against poor families. "The law is going to be used more commonly against poor, vulnerable populations. If this family could pay for a nurse to take care of the boy at home, we wouldn't be having this conversation," she said.

Emilio is on Medicaid, which usually doesn't pay for all hospital charges. The hospital's spokesman said that he doesn't know how much it's costing the hospital to keep Emilio alive, but that cost was not a consideration in the hospital's decision.

"[Our medical treatments] are inflicting suffering," said Michael Regier, senior vice president for legal affairs and general counsel for the Seton Family of Hospitals, of which Austin Children's is a member. "We are inflicting harm on this child. And it's harm that is without a corresponding medical benefit."

"It's one thing to harm a child and know this is something I can cure," he added. "But that's not the case here." Regier says Emilio is unaware of his surroundings, and grimaces in pain. He said the ventilator tube down his throat is painful, as is a therapy in which hospital staff beat on his chest to loosen thick secretions.

But Gonzales says her son is on heavy doses of morphine and not in pain. She said her son does react to her. "I put my finger in his hand, and I'm talking to him, and he'll squeeze it," she says. "Then he'll open his eyes and look at me."

Gonzales said she'll continue to fight for treatment for her son. "I love my kid so much, I have to fight for him," she said. "That's your job -- you fight for your son or your daughter. You don't let nobody push you around or make decisions for you."
_____________

I find this story so sad.

I can see the debate about not wanting to force someone into the decision and how it can be used against poor people. However, the baby is suffering and nothing can be done. I did find it odd that the mother wants him to die "naturally, the way God intended." but is keeping him alive by means that are unnatural.

It's just a terrible situation. Crying
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nekokate



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Location: West Yorkshire, UK

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethical debate Reply with quote

Skylace wrote:
I did find it odd that the mother wants him to die "naturally, the way God intended." but is keeping him alive by means that are unnatural.


That's exactly what I was about to mention. If he needs to be on huge doses of morphine to stop his suffering then he's essentially going to be seeing pink elephants and, even at that incredibly young age, have no real quality of life. If it's incurable, and the chances of his survival are absolutely zero, then as horrible as it seems, the best thing is to surround him with his family and just let him slip away.

If it's a choice between a loved one just dying, or a loved one being kept alive in peaks and valleys of agony and drugged unconsciousness for months on end and then dying, I know which I'd prefer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
til661



Joined: 11 Feb 2007

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethical debate Reply with quote

Skylace wrote:
Dr. Ross says that under the law, some dozen times hospitals have pulled the plug against the family's wishes. She says more often than not, the law is used against poor families. "The law is going to be used more commonly against poor, vulnerable populations. If this family could pay for a nurse to take care of the boy at home, we wouldn't be having this conversation," she said.


This seems to me the key point. Although in this case I would also say it is probably the right decision to go against the parents wish, i worry that legislation like this can have unforseen consequences. My initial reaction to these cases used to be purely the right of voluntary suicide/euthanasia etc, but there is more than enough grey area and risk inherent in these things that i'm no longer sure. Rather like in the Lords debate last year the worry is that precedent can be a dangerous thing.

*Fence sitting*
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eefanincan
Admin


Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:37 am    Post subject: Re: Ethical debate Reply with quote

til661 wrote:
Skylace wrote:
Dr. Ross says that under the law, some dozen times hospitals have pulled the plug against the family's wishes. She says more often than not, the law is used against poor families. "The law is going to be used more commonly against poor, vulnerable populations. If this family could pay for a nurse to take care of the boy at home, we wouldn't be having this conversation," she said.


This seems to me the key point. Although in this case I would also say it is probably the right decision to go against the parents wish, i worry that legislation like this can have unforseen consequences. My initial reaction to these cases used to be purely the right of voluntary suicide/euthanasia etc, but there is more than enough grey area and risk inherent in these things that i'm no longer sure. Rather like in the Lords debate last year the worry is that precedent can be a dangerous thing.

*Fence sitting*


I would hesitate to say that you're fence sitting---- nobody truly knows how they would feel in a situation like this--- they can only imagine unless they've been through it before.

This story really hit home with me-- seen it a number of times at work.... usually it's the opposite in that a family doesn't wish treatment but the hospital figures that it's needed. As a pediatric oncology nurse I saw this a few times--- parents don't wish to put their child through chemo, despite whatever odds the oncologists have given them. There are varied reasons, mostly religion or a wish to use "holistic" agents or not wanting them to suffer all the side effects. (for what it's worth, I'd think twice before putting anyone through chemotherapy). Whatever the reason, the reality (at least where I live) is that you have no rights as a parent. That's really what it comes down to. If the oncologists feel that the child should have the treatment, they go to court and in the end the child is forced to undergo the treatment and generally the child is taken away from the parents and put in the custody of social services and the parents are then monitored by social services afterwards for a lengthy period of time. So basically, you really must agree with your child's treatment or this will happen. I've seen it and it's not pretty. At times, it really is doctor's playing God.

How can a country say that you have religious freedom and all of that when they do this to people? Provided that parents are adequately informed of what can happen without treatment, how can they then turn around and deny them their decision as parents? I can honestly say that most parents I've dealt with also want the best of everything for their children but they also understand about quality of life and how it would affect their child.

We had an ethical specialist involved for one particular case and I think she made an excellent point when she said that medical staff struggle when family decisions don't always match what we know to be medically appropriate treatment options----- but that is our issue. We don't have to agree with a decision to respect it... as long as we know that all parties have made informed decisions. I've not always agreed with how things are settled, but that piece of info has helped me to keep it in perspective, especially when I know I would have done things differently if it were my child.

There is absolutely no black and white on this issue.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Marcella-FL
Don't make me pull this van over!!!


Joined: 01 May 2006
Location: KMC, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ugh! It's the whole Terry Schiavo thing again! 100 years ago it would have been a non issue because the methods of prolonging life weren't there. "as god intended ..." GIVE ME A BREAK! Just admit that you are too selfish to let go. I couldn't put my child through it. That kind of existence is not "life" ..It would be different if there were treatment for thecondition that would enable him to come off the ventilator.

I may not have had to go through this with my child but I did with my mother-in-law and I can tell you it is just dragging out the inevitable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lostinthestates



Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Location: Bethlehem, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcella-FL wrote:
ugh! It's the whole Terry Schiavo thing again! 100 years ago it would have been a non issue because the methods of prolonging life weren't there. "as god intended ..." GIVE ME A BREAK! Just admit that you are too selfish to let go. I couldn't put my child through it. That kind of existence is not "life" ..It would be different if there were treatment for thecondition that would enable him to come off the ventilator.

I may not have had to go through this with my child but I did with my mother-in-law and I can tell you it is just dragging out the inevitable.
I agree with you Marcella! That's exactly what was going through my mind when I heard about it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
eefanincan
Admin


Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lostinthestates wrote:
Marcella-FL wrote:
ugh! It's the whole Terry Schiavo thing again! 100 years ago it would have been a non issue because the methods of prolonging life weren't there. "as god intended ..." GIVE ME A BREAK! Just admit that you are too selfish to let go. I couldn't put my child through it. That kind of existence is not "life" ..It would be different if there were treatment for thecondition that would enable him to come off the ventilator.

I may not have had to go through this with my child but I did with my mother-in-law and I can tell you it is just dragging out the inevitable.
I agree with you Marcella! That's exactly what was going through my mind when I heard about it!


I agree with you both (I'm thinking along the same lines) and yet, why should the hospital decide rather than the parent?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Couchtripper Forum Index -> News mash All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


Couchtripper - 2005-2015